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victimsofadown
09-04-2014, 01:37 PM
I don't mean monetarily, but I see several very inexpensive boxes for legacy sets all over. The problem is that it's hard for me to view any nonstandard purchases (including RH01) as worthwhile when standard appears to be the only supported format. The problem on that front, of course, is that I can't find standard product to save my life (unless it's crazy expensive online). Anyone else stuck in this loop? Am I right in my assumption of "wasted money" with the exception of play between friends?

HypeMan!
09-04-2014, 02:07 PM
If a vintage format is pushed for by the community, it could put value on older product. I still enjoy the variation of old legacy, but as of right now, it will be stuck like that until people ask for more. I would encourage people to push for more old legacy/vintage recognition to prevent the 'wasted money' idea from become true.

Cetonis
09-04-2014, 02:36 PM
Legacy had been "supported" in the sense that there were two or three events a year, and a ban/errata list that grew by 5-10 cards per event, but for a number of reasons* Jasco has stopped supporting Legacy on any sort of official basis.

It doesn't really change much from the players' side, save for the handful that traveled to all the Nats/Worlds and actually liked the format enough to play it seriously. Even if it were officially supported, you'd still have "wasted" your money unless you were going to take the two trips a year to wherever the events would be held (and even then the odds that you'd be able to compete just with whatever boxes you could find on the internet are slim).

As for obtaining standard, there are only a handful of online retailers that stock UFS right now, which I attempted to list here (http://forums.jascogames.com/forums/showthread.php?9894-New-to-UFS-Start-here!). NeoMax and Tides of Vengeance are tough to get, but everything else is fairly readily available at normal prices (about 75-80 per box, or 25-30 per tin). The tins in particular are a fine way to get started with Standard, both in terms of being the newest, and because the decks are fairly solid out of the box and offer a variety of styles.

*
- Proper handling of a ban list was basically impossible due to the tiny sample size of events mixed with the ridiculous nature of the card pool.

- While some of those 06-08 sets are available cheap, many of them are not, and given that there were maybe 6-12 playable cards per set back then, access to the whole pool is pretty important if you want to actually compete.

:: Due to this, the format was never going to be open to new players. Only those who have been playing competitively since 06-08, or who can borrow cards from such a player, have any kind of realistic chance.

- While playing casually with old cards can be fun, competitive Legacy is widely considered to be miserable. Not that there aren't those who enjoy it, but if you were to hold a Legacy-only event that wasn't attached to some form of standard, you'd probably get at most 5-10 people plus some locals. There just aren't enough people who both (a) care, and (b) have the means to travel a lot.

- Something needed to be cut anyway, if they want to fit Extended and possibly some form of Limited into their major event schedule. Either one of those options would be substantially more accessible to newer players, and better for Jasco business-wise.

- Between arguing over the ban list, handing down rulings, building support for ill-conceived interactions into the rulebook, adding all those cards to some sort of oracle, answering community questions, etc. it's just a huge sum of time for Jasco/playtest/judges to spend on something that hurts the game (by being unable to use the event time on other things) more than it actually helps anybody.

dutpotd
09-04-2014, 03:41 PM
I think Tim's done a good job of summarizing the issues around Legacy. Frankly, and I started in 2008 - I had to ask myself the same question, was it worth buying anything other than 4 point? What about 3 point, I had a couple more tournaments where it would be legal...? The answer I arrived at was buy the standard stuff if you want to play UFS and weigh your purchases towards the stuff that will remain legal the longest. Of course, the answer depends on if you want to compete or not, but given I did, that was my answer.

If you just want to collect UFS, are a Street Fighter fan-boy or something, then obviously it isn't wasted money. Or if you want to play for fun (not supported OP) with friends/family, or if you want to introduce the mechanics of the game to someone, then cheap Legacy cards are fine for that.

Some people may look at Jasco no longer OP supporting Legacy as it hurting older players, and to a degree they are correct. Some people may look at it hurting potential new players, because potential new players can't 'find' cost-friendly standard product. Tim's done a good job of pointing out why that isn't true, i.e. even if the Legacy stuff was legal, that said new player could find for cheap, they wouldn't be 'competitive', so... yeah.

Ultimately, if you want to compete, buying the newer stuff is almost always the way to go. There is typically a very small power creep, and/or the competitive environment tends to circle around the newer cards, so buying the absolute newest set makes the most sense re: being competitive and it being valuable to competitive play the longest.

This is what I tell my new players, 1) make an effort to start buying things that are going to come out, and/or buy the most recently released stuff. 2) if you are building a deck that you think requires a card from an earlier set in standard that you can't find anymore, ask to borrow it from the community, and simply proxy it for playing purposes.

2) is really not a problem, I travel with all my cards, lots of others do too. Eventually, maybe you will do the same and be the 2) for other players.

TLDR, buy 2+ Darkstalker tins, buy 2+ MM tins, if you can buy a box of each KoF you should be set for competitive cards, even moreso if you trade. You might need to ask to borrow a few cards from Red Horizon sets and maybe some UR cards you will need to hunt down, trade, or borrow given the deck you choose to play, but that shouldn't limit you given a lot is viable competitively in UFS.

So really you are looking at $100 of tins, $200 of boxes, tops - depending on what prices they land at. $300 to be pretty much 'there' competitively with cards isn't crazy expensive imo, at least for a CCG.

Now, if you have a playgroup (2+ people buying) and you all buy the above you'd be even better off.

Murdercleese
09-04-2014, 05:32 PM
As someone that started playing last September, my experience has been pretty much awesome with the exception of Tides. It was the last set prior to KOF XIII coming out and I couldn't buy a booster pack to save my life. Now it looks like NeoMax is gonna be that set for any new players this year and let me tell you it's a crappy feeling.

What I ended up doing with Tides is buying 2 of every starter deck. Since it's not an option for Neomax the best advice I can give anyone having issues finding boxes is to try and buy common/uncommon sets from secondary markets / other players and hope someone as helpful as Garrett comes along and is able to help you out for tournaments with any rares/UR's you would like to run.

HypeMan!
09-04-2014, 06:13 PM
:: Due to this, the format was never going to be open to new players. Only those who have been playing competitively since 06-08, or who can borrow cards from such a player, have any kind of realistic chance.



Well, yeah. That's the nature of legacy. It is a format purely for people who have been involved with the game and have the older cards. It gives longer term value to cards and is an incentive to stick with the game long term, as well as something for players who have stuck with the game for a number of years.

Either or, there is the new legacy that starts from everything from 2008 forward starting with Soul Calibur 4 and ShadoWar, and those are definitely sets I would suggest picking. Nice thing is that legacy will always exist in some capacity. It's an aspect of the industry at large that's just a necessity for older games.

victimsofadown
09-04-2014, 06:16 PM
I appreciate the responses! With regards to cost maybe that's why I'm confused. Don't the packs still retail at $3 per booster? If that's the case then why are so many boxes priced above $72? And while I understand that $300 isn't a big investment for a competitive CCG it is a huge investment when I have no playgroup nearby :(. I just wish that there was more product available, but my guess is that Jasco is concerned with flooding the market.

Cetonis
09-04-2014, 06:44 PM
Retail for one booster pack is $3.99. The minimum price is $2.99 on anything recent, so boxes can go as low as $71.76. It's normal for stores without a lot of bulk to charge $75-80.

victimsofadown
09-04-2014, 06:53 PM
This makes much more sense. Here I was thinking that each box was being charged at the selling rate, when in fact $72 is discounted. Very unfortunate for my wallet though. Thank you for the price clarification.

Leyasu
09-05-2014, 02:12 AM
If a vintage format is pushed for by the community, it could put value on older product. I still enjoy the variation of old legacy, but as of right now, it will be stuck like that until people ask for more. I would encourage people to push for more old legacy/vintage recognition to prevent the 'wasted money' idea from become true.

I agree with this. I've been pushing hard for more legacy support, and even if the closed groups that frequent Standard events dislike the format, there is a huge Legacy-Only playerbase that doesn't attend them. While some sentiment has been to ''force'' Standard on to those players or punish those players for not enjoying Standard, most of the games growth in my locale has been Legacy. In fact, since I introduced people to UFS, only 2 took to standard and don't go to events, while there is now 30 of us across four playgroups who play Legacy.

This is only hampered by the fact our local gamestore doesn't support UFS or even sell it for dislike of the game (to my understanding). So, there is worth to it, but it revolves around what your playgroup is interested in.

I also disagree with much of Cetonis sentiment. Much of what I've seen regarding being able to compete with Legacy is not having access to the entire card pool, but more imagination. A lot of the people I see talk about competing just copy decks they've seen win tournaments and buy expensive singles to suit. The more interesting and 'competitive' decks are the ones doing things that people don't expect, that creativity usually inspired by the limitiations of what they can use (accessability).

There is also a huge mistake in the below quote:


:: Due to this, the format was never going to be open to new players. Only those who have been playing competitively since 06-08, or who can borrow cards from such a player, have any kind of realistic chance.

If this was true, Legacy would not be seeing more expansion than Standard, with more and more standard players of note leaving to play Legacy (I was sent this link for comment by one of them). While many notable STD players have remained, many new players are diving into Legacy because of the variety and easier accessability. Yes, money cards are harder to track down, but many people aren't concerned with that - they just want to play a character they really like and have fun after work/therapy/whatever.

Another quote I have issue with is this:


- While playing casually with old cards can be fun, competitive Legacy is widely considered to be miserable. Not that there aren't those who enjoy it, but if you were to hold a Legacy-only event that wasn't attached to some form of standard, you'd probably get at most 5-10 people plus some locals. There just aren't enough people who both (a) care, and (b) have the means to travel a lot.

This is also incorrect. This is based on assumptions that (A) People who play legacy care about Standard, (B) those who play standard do not have to worry about travelling a lot , and (C) the local playerbase is Standard only.

The Legacy Nats I went to was a busy, crowded thing. It had more people than the Standard event I went to. I also enjoyed the Legacy event (even though I was playing a 2-4 symbol deck because troll), where as the STD event I didn't (everything was money cards, rushing through game points, and while I met a few nice people, I didn't feel comfortable due to the overly-competitive atmosphere (win at all costs)).


So really you are looking at $100 of tins, $200 of boxes, tops - depending on what prices they land at. $300 to be pretty much 'there' competitively with cards isn't crazy expensive imo, at least for a CCG.

For the same $300 my group got 14 booster boxes, 2 display cases of starter decks, and somebodys collection off Ebay for Legacy. While the above works out to 8 tins (equal to a case of starter decks + a booster box), and 3 boosters boxes for Standard.

Closing: As an avid Legacy player (it's all I play) and the runner of Labores Somnium's event hosting (non-sanctioned past declaring donations to the tax office), Legacy has definatly been the better and more interesting format. If you're looking for a ''play at tournaments and/or competitively'' style of play you'd be looking for Standard. That's the format that's officially sanctioned and featured for people to ''break'' as hard as they can within limitations - it's also Jasco's biggest money winner. If you're looking for more character diversity, more strategic diversity and more casual experience, you'd want Legacy, which has less sanctioned events which suits more casual players fine (being punished for not attending events has become a cited reason for some people quitting). In the end, I hope that you find the style of play and format that works best for you and is most accomodating to your needs =)

PS: I noticed in my closing one final aspect I forgot to mention. Some people forget that while Legacy cards are not allowed in Standard, Standard cards are still usable in Legacy. Much of the problems with sets like Tides of Vengence, Neomax and Darkstalkers Tins have been because of Legacy groups like mine buying them in mass bulk for use in Legacy, effectively removing entire sections of print runs designed to support Standard. While this isn't an issue to Legacy players, it does drive up the cost and availability of Standard sets even further. Also, you will need Legacy cards to trade to Legacy players for their Standard ones, so it can be helpful to keep a handful around for that =)

Tagrineth
09-05-2014, 05:58 AM
I also disagree with much of Cetonis sentiment. Much of what I've seen regarding being able to compete with Legacy is not having access to the entire card pool, but more imagination. A lot of the people I see talk about competing just copy decks they've seen win tournaments and buy expensive singles to suit. The more interesting and 'competitive' decks are the ones doing things that people don't expect, that creativity usually inspired by the limitiations of what they can use (accessability).

You can't be creative in a legacy tournament without access to all or most of the card pool. This is an immeasurably fallacious statement. If you show up with some creative junk you're quite likely just going to get rolled by the powerhouse decks that are super optimised with either the most powerful control pieces or the craziest aggression.


If this was true, Legacy would not be seeing more expansion than Standard, with more and more standard players of note leaving to play Legacy (I was sent this link for comment by one of them). While many notable STD players have remained, many new players are diving into Legacy because of the variety and easier accessability. Yes, money cards are harder to track down, but many people aren't concerned with that - they just want to play a character they really like and have fun after work/therapy/whatever.

Legacy seeing more expansion than standard? Yeah maybe in one single area where standard is actively being prevented by your store being awful.

But this style of legacy play DOES NOT WORK FOR TOURNAMENTS. When there is something truly on the line (e.g. a foundation you get to design) you can't just show up with whatever random character you like and "have fun after work". you're going to get run over by one of the broken tier characters/decks that basically dictate the format.


The Legacy Nats I went to was a busy, crowded thing. It had more people than the Standard event I went to. I also enjoyed the Legacy event (even though I was playing a 2-4 symbol deck because troll), where as the STD event I didn't (everything was money cards, rushing through game points, and while I met a few nice people, I didn't feel comfortable due to the overly-competitive atmosphere (win at all costs)).

The only Nationals event I have been able to travel to - this year, at the beginning of the year - there were barely 30 players for Legacy and over 50 for Standard. MOST of the players that played in Legacy played in Standard too so it was basically the same players with the same atmosphere.

Or are you talking about a "legacy" nats referring to an event from years ago when "legacy" was STANDARD at the time? Because that's an entirely different topic from what we're talking about today.


For the same $300 my group got 14 booster boxes, 2 display cases of starter decks, and somebodys collection off Ebay for Legacy. While the above works out to 8 tins (equal to a case of starter decks + a booster box), and 3 boosters boxes for Standard.

14 boxes. 90% of the cards in those were probably kindling. Various badly designed 2 check attacks and innumerable unplayably terrible foundations. Each set had maybe a dozen really good, strong cards in it. The modern tins and sets have a much stronger design and while there's still a bunch of meh, the playable-to-trash ratio is significantly higher. More than likely, that $300 worth of standard would actually net you more good cards than that same $300 worth of Legacy.

That and you literally can't buy boxes of the most defining Legacy sets anymore. Like, you can PROBABLY count the number of sealed Realm of Midnight boxes that still exist on one hand.




Closing: As an avid Legacy player (it's all I play) and the runner of Labores Somnium's event hosting (non-sanctioned past declaring donations to the tax office), Legacy has definatly been the better and more interesting format. If you're looking for a ''play at tournaments and/or competitively'' style of play you'd be looking for Standard. That's the format that's officially sanctioned and featured for people to ''break'' as hard as they can within limitations - it's also Jasco's biggest money winner. If you're looking for more character diversity, more strategic diversity and more casual experience, you'd want Legacy, which has less sanctioned events which suits more casual players fine (being punished for not attending events has become a cited reason for some people quitting). In the end, I hope that you find the style of play and format that works best for you and is most accomodating to your needs =)

This block of text is quite literally you saying

"In closing, if you want to play in sanctioned tournaments, you want standard. If you want to play casually, you should play Legacy."

Well... yeah. This entire frigging topic is talking about supporting Legacy as a tournament format. Right here you are literally admitting point blank that your entire post is completely irrelevant because you yourself admit that Legacy is not a good tournament format. Which is why JascoGames doesn't sanction Legacy tournaments! That doesn't affect your ability to play local Legacy UFS to your heart's content, and you already are! so more power to you! keep having fun with it by all means!



PS: I noticed in my closing one final aspect I forgot to mention. Some people forget that while Legacy cards are not allowed in Standard, Standard cards are still usable in Legacy. Much of the problems with sets like Tides of Vengence, Neomax and Darkstalkers Tins have been because of Legacy groups like mine buying them in mass bulk for use in Legacy, effectively removing entire sections of print runs designed to support Standard. While this isn't an issue to Legacy players, it does drive up the cost and availability of Standard sets even further. Also, you will need Legacy cards to trade to Legacy players for their Standard ones, so it can be helpful to keep a handful around for that =)

Please, point me to these people - I have a truckload of great Legacy cards including power crap that I'd love to get rid of for stuff that's actually useful to me in some form.

dutpotd
09-05-2014, 10:20 AM
If you're looking for a ''play at tournaments and/or competitively'' style of play you'd be looking for Standard. That's the format that's officially sanctioned and featured for people to ''break'' as hard as they can within limitations - it's also Jasco's biggest money winner. If you're looking for more character diversity, more strategic diversity and more casual experience, you'd want Legacy, which has less sanctioned events which suits more casual players fine (being punished for not attending events has become a cited reason for some people quitting). In the end, I hope that you find the style of play and format that works best for you and is most accomodating to your needs

First things first, there is a big difference between each of these three things:

1. Casual Legacy
2. Competitive Legacy
3. Casual Standard 'currently almost =' Competitive Standard

Now, to clear up some confusion, you will note that I pretty much equate casual Standard with Competitive Standard - the reason why is simple, and its great. The standard format has this thing called 'a little pinch of balance', what this means is that most any/all of the characters and symbols in it can take games off one another at any time. This is similar to what Tag said, namely in Legacy about 80% of the cards are flat out unplayable, they don't compare to the other 20%. In standard, about 90% of the cards are playable and compare well with each other...

Basically, you are saying 'if you play casually only, you might as well play with the characters you like and with the cards that are the cheapest'. That is all fine and good and no one will take that away from you.

The problem with this is that MOST players, especially new ones, want to feel like they are improving and playing in a balanced environment where they always have a chance to win if they put in effort. I can guarantee you that your casual Legacy decks have ZERO chance of beating a competitive Legacy deck. That is problematic, so while you may find your Legacy base is growing, they are almost always going to hit a glass ceiling when they play against competitive Legacy decks and their taste for the game will sour, they will quickly realize they aren't having fun because they have no chance to win. That, or they will just not attend Legacy events that are competitive which leads me to my main issue with your post...

being punished for not attending events has become a cited reason for some people quitting

What does this even mean? Attending an event is a rewarding experience - obviously then, relatively speaking, you are 'not rewarded' if you don't attend - equating 'not being rewarded' with 'being punished' is the wrong way to look at it, frankly its self-destructive and anyone who makes that claim had better be prepared to explain what they mean because it appears to be an incredibly blind way of looking at their experience with UFS.

I still believe all players should play all formats of UFS because a) there is a lot of fun to be had playing Legacy, it is different from standard, b) you will become a better standard/legacy player if you have insight into the game more, and you can only get that from playing more diverse decks and strategies something that relies on playing more and with different card pools, and c) there are 'fan-favorites' in Legacy, if you are one of those people that like to play their favorite characters only then Legacy probably suits you more.

In closing (response to you). I think your response is a good one, from the '1' perspective above, but Tim's response related to '2' (why Jasco dropped it competitively), and you are apparently severely disillusioned concerning '3'. Standard continues to be an amazing experience you and others appear to be missing out on due to distribution problems and/or finances, which is a true shame - especially since you have the skill/base from Legacy to very much enjoy Standard (both formats). I speak as a connoisseur of both.

Personally, I understand the reasons behind dropping Legacy as a sanctioned format but I still feel it could have been handled far better instead of simply being dropped. For example a small Legacy event could still be run attached to every standard event but changes could be made to make it 'better' and costless from a Company standpoint. Some options include.

1. You could make it Wandering Master style, 'do you have a Legacy deck?' ok let's throwdown.
2. You could make it single game rounds - 30 mins, top cuts single game rounds except for the final that could be timeless best of three or whatever.
3. You could easily get a group of players/testers to decide on bans, Legacy had been steadily cleaned up and it didn't take a ton of effort to do so.
4. The prize cannot be something like a foundation, standard legal reward makes no sense. Basically, players would pay a $5-$10 fee to enter and something unique / collectible could be the prize, alternate art, an art print, whatever. Players shouldn't be reward-driven to play Legacy, after all with the above changes it would be more about having fun with old cards they can't play anymore.

There are just a lot of things that could be done to have players still drag Legacy decks to events to have fun/compete with them, while addressing the issue of 'time' and 'cost' to the Company. Side events are side events, and the dropping of Legacy 'in my eyes (personal opinion)' as someone that is committed to UFS and a sincere proponent of Jasco and all of its staff can only be explained as the 'lazy course of action'.

The 'hard working course of action' would go far not to alienate your older players while at the same time bridging old players to Standard (the Ley's and her group would be incentivized to play Standard coming from Legacy) while bridging new players to Legacy (they would be rewarded knowing about the games roots and would be better players). That is the course of action Jasco should and can still take.

TLDR, I think dropping Legacy altogether was a bad decision. Ley offers good response from the Casual Legacy player perspective only. Standard is great, Legacy is great, play both - but refer to my earlier post if just wondering what to 'buy'.

Cetonis
09-05-2014, 11:42 AM
the dropping of Legacy 'in my eyes (personal opinion)' as someone that is committed to UFS and a sincere proponent of Jasco and all of its staff can only be explained as the 'lazy course of action'.

The 'hard working course of action' would go far not to alienate your older players while at the same time bridging old players to Standard (the Ley's and her group would be incentivized to play Standard coming from Legacy) while bridging new players to Legacy (they would be rewarded knowing about the games roots and would be better players). That is the course of action Jasco should and can still take.

It would be lazy, if there were infinite time in the day. Unfortunately, time is a limited resource, and it costs a huge amount of it to be able to claim your legacy events are "official" - Just making sure the LGR supports various legacy interactions, would in and of itself likely delay the release of the rulebook by 3 to 6 months. Nevermind the "oracle" element of it, making sure you have a group of judges trained to know all the rulings, and so on.

Considering that these are things that any sufficiently motivated group of people could do if they really want to, being able to say a side event is "officially sanctioned" as opposed to "sponsored by Crescent City Games" or whatever, is not nearly valuable enough to prioritize it over the dozens of other things Jasco and related folk could be doing with their time.

dutpotd
09-05-2014, 11:55 AM
Considering that these are things that any sufficiently motivated group of people could do if they really want to, being able to say a side event is "officially sanctioned" as opposed to "sponsored by Crescent City Games" or whatever, is not nearly valuable enough to prioritize it over the dozens of other things Jasco and related folk could be doing with their time.

I suppose its a matter of priorities, if there is value in getting more players to play Standard (those that just play Legacy but that may grow into both if both were at events) and if there is value in not alienating older players who still like to play with old cards - vs. the time it would take to run a wandering master event or a single elimination Legacy event... it's basically a matter of being creative and getting the cost/benefit right.

I'm saying there is benefit to be had to keeping Legacy a 'thing', Jasco just has to match it with the right cost. It doesn't have to cost a huge amount, and 'official' isn't really the concern, 'managed by the Company (playable at the event you travel to in order to play UFS/standard' is the thing because it shows they see the benefit and want to pay proper cost to derive it. Example:

Rulewise - let's say, there is no official judge, if both players can't agree to how something works then they both get a game loss. These are Legacy players and the prize isn't huge, I'm sure it can be worked out between peers. Alternatively, you could have a volunteer judge or whatever, or a group of players, or whatever.

Prize Support - as I've said, simply do something unique that equals the cost of entry - UFS has never really been about prizes, our prize is something that entices us to play the game more, obviously it is about playing the game that matters most and right now the abandonment stance clearly contradicts that. I'm not exactly sure if Jasco has taken the time to think about what it says to certain players to simply abandon Legacy from events in all capacities. I'm not disagreeing with the reasoning for doing so, I'm disagreeing with the lack of regret/attempt at reaching a 'beneficial compromise'.

Maybe it should be up to the players to organize their own Legacy side events, I don't agree that is optimal given the benefits I see Jasco could derive from the alternative (repeat 'I' see it as lazy), but if it is what it is then so be it I suppose.

HypeMan!
09-05-2014, 12:07 PM
Personally, I understand the reasons behind dropping Legacy as a sanctioned format but I still feel it could have been handled far better instead of simply being dropped. For example a small Legacy event could still be run attached to every standard event but changes could be made to make it 'better' and costless from a Company standpoint. Some options include.

1. You could make it Wandering Master style, 'do you have a Legacy deck?' ok let's throwdown.
2. You could make it single game rounds - 30 mins, top cuts single game rounds except for the final that could be timeless best of three or whatever.
3. You could easily get a group of players/testers to decide on bans, Legacy had been steadily cleaned up and it didn't take a ton of effort to do so.
4. The prize cannot be something like a foundation, standard legal reward makes no sense. Basically, players would pay a $5-$10 fee to enter and something unique / collectible could be the prize, alternate art, an art print, whatever. Players shouldn't be reward-driven to play Legacy, after all with the above changes it would be more about having fun with old cards they can't play anymore.

I can more or less agree with that. The punchline is that dropping legacy whole kit-and-kaboodle has caused a lot of derision among people and is coming across like a betrayal of old players, especially sacrificing their loyalty in hopes of getting new people which really never pans out. I really hope the amount of noise that has come out of this will be taken note of. I'd like to see side events and a recognized vintage format for cards printed before 08. It doesn't make a lot of sense to have people saying they want to play UFS and Jasco patting them on the head and saying "well that's nice, but we don't care"

Having side events, especially as turn out for tournaments gets larger, is a great idea and not handing out a cardboard prize is fine. You could easily have legacy events that run at the same time as Teams to give people something to do, and while Teams awards an assets, legacy side winner could get a worlds bye (if we get that hammered out and place some real value on it), product, and/or a trophy of some sort.

Cetonis
09-05-2014, 12:20 PM
Saying it's "managed by Jasco" and then not actually managing it - not having rules support, etc. - would be awful. They'd have to constantly answer questions about why their so-called "support" of Legacy is only nominal at best, deal with people asking for Legacy PTCs, reprint sets, and so on.

It's better to just be honest about the fact that they aren't going to spend the large amount of resources required to do it right, so that if some group of players wants to give it proper treatment they can do so without feeling like they're overreaching / stepping on Jasco's toes.

If no such group ever does step up, then that means there just aren't enough people who care. If one does, and they're reasonably competent, Jasco can easily endorse them and let them run events (at standard majors and elsewhere), and whenever asked about Legacy they can mention said group etc.

Leyasu
09-05-2014, 12:24 PM
You can't be creative in a legacy tournament without access to all or most of the card pool. This is an immeasurably fallacious statement. If you show up with some creative junk you're quite likely just going to get rolled by the powerhouse decks that are super optimised with either the most powerful control pieces or the craziest aggression.

I didn't find this. Perhaps this is your personal experience, but it hasn't been mine. In fact, the people who were playing the best of the best only got into top 8, with the highest decks coming down more to player skill and unexpected synergies.

Also, there was a lot of trading going on through Facebook at that time. While people didn't have access to the full card pool in their own collection, people traded for what they needed. It seemed a lot nicer than the STD enivroment, where I've seen some players hoard expensive cards just to keep them out of the hands of competitiors, and a ''win no matter what'' attitude was more visible.

Creativity is at it's strongest when resources are limited. This is a basic fact of human psychology.


Legacy seeing more expansion than standard? Yeah maybe in one single area where standard is actively being prevented by your store being awful.

But this style of legacy play DOES NOT WORK FOR TOURNAMENTS. When there is something truly on the line (e.g. a foundation you get to design) you can't just show up with whatever random character you like and "have fun after work". you're going to get run over by one of the broken tier characters/decks that basically dictate the format.

That isn't correct, again. Player skill can outmatch powerful cards - it always can. Also, I'm speaking about experience at Nationals, and again, only about 3 people I knew of cared as much to try to win. Non of them even got into the top 8. Most of the people there were doing so just for fun. So unilateral statements don't ring true for everyone everywhere.



The only Nationals event I have been able to travel to - this year, at the beginning of the year - there were barely 30 players for Legacy and over 50 for Standard. MOST of the players that played in Legacy played in Standard too so it was basically the same players with the same atmosphere.

Or are you talking about a "legacy" nats referring to an event from years ago when "legacy" was STANDARD at the time? Because that's an entirely different topic from what we're talking about today.

Actually, it was this year. Though I'm guessing that the UK Playerbase is different to the US one. Also, adjusting for scale, the STD tournament had about 14 people. The Legacy one had over 20. I don't see how that's STD being more popular than Legacy.

And I can also explain why: some people dusted off old cards to come play Legacy. They did alright, and had fun. These people quit or abstain from STD because of rotation.

Also, Legacy is a constant hot bed of innovation. STD recently devolved into ''Play K or Iori or don't bother turning up''. That's not really innovative or fun for most people, and did contribute to STD's decline at the time.


14 boxes. 90% of the cards in those were probably kindling. Various badly designed 2 check attacks and innumerable unplayably terrible foundations. Each set had maybe a dozen really good, strong cards in it. The modern tins and sets have a much stronger design and while there's still a bunch of meh, the playable-to-trash ratio is significantly higher. More than likely, that $300 worth of standard would actually net you more good cards than that same $300 worth of Legacy.

That and you literally can't buy boxes of the most defining Legacy sets anymore. Like, you can PROBABLY count the number of sealed Realm of Midnight boxes that still exist on one hand.

If you're only after what you've seen other people play and win with, of course you're going to think the cards are rubbish. Heck, the current decks dominating STD were regarded as terrible... until they dominated STD and shot up in price. Monetive Speculation is not indicitive of player skill, either.

And again, as I mentioned before, how competitely someone wishes to play is a factor, as well as playgroup. Thus an abundance of cards can be a useful thing, especially if you're trying to accomodate a playgroup with just one persons collection.

Oh, and I had no problem getting those old boxes. They were more expensive, yes. But they're only inaccessible if you don't believe they're worth the extra $30 people charge from them - and it's quickly balanced by other boxes being $30 lower.


This block of text is quite literally you saying

"In closing, if you want to play in sanctioned tournaments, you want standard. If you want to play casually, you should play Legacy."

Well... yeah. This entire frigging topic is talking about supporting Legacy as a tournament format. Right here you are literally admitting point blank that your entire post is completely irrelevant because you yourself admit that Legacy is not a good tournament format. Which is why JascoGames doesn't sanction Legacy tournaments! That doesn't affect your ability to play local Legacy UFS to your heart's content, and you already are! so more power to you! keep having fun with it by all means!

Erm, no. Maybe I wasn't clear and you weren't aware I'm autistic and can get words jumbled up, and thus misread the context, but it was definatly not me devaluing my previous point.

My suggestion of what the individual, original poster wanted is that they would want Standard if they want to immediatly jump into competitive events... due to the support and frequency of them. It was also personalised, as I was recommending what was best for the original poster as an individual, not what was best 'for every single UFS player ever'.

Legacy is a fine tournament format. Diversity vs ''play one of these two decks or just lose, period'' and a growing playerbase which is including more and more people leaving STD (again, a common thing in CCG's - people quit over rotation and it's constant ''subscription'' style necessity of buying more sets).



Please, point me to these people - I have a truckload of great Legacy cards including power crap that I'd love to get rid of for stuff that's actually useful to me in some form.

I organise trades for Labores Somnium members in a group on Facebook called ''UFS UK Players'' (I think that's it's name. It might be slightly rearranged). I also buy old trade folders in whole so people can afford to buy more boxes or singles they need. It's a fine arrangement =)

You just have to look around and ask. Social media is good for helping organise trading. I use it more than these boards (because I don't like posting in forums. It's hard to keep track of what I'm answering), so maybe there is a US UFS Players group?

Also, I was told that the wording of my post may seem mean or rude. I apologise for that, my language skills are not the greatest and I sometimes sound clinical or belittling when making an effort to be clear/explanitory. I hope I haven't caused you any offence =)

dutpotd
09-05-2014, 12:26 PM
Sure, I can see that line of thought Tim. Although I think nominal at best = nominal benefit makes sense and is better than 'nothing at best' and forgoing all benefit.

My point is there has been no steps to explain this officially, there has been no bridging plan put in place, it has simply been dropped. From a growing 30+ player event to dropped. You think it was growing because people didn't like it? No, many of my players love Legacy, they love standard too of course. But you can bet if a Legacy event is played at an event they would play and they look forward to it.

I'm just saying, tsk-tsk - there is benefit being left floating in the wind, and negative opinions formed that could have been avoided or turned into positive ones. That's pretty much it.

dutpotd
09-05-2014, 12:31 PM
Also, Legacy is a constant hot bed of innovation. STD recently devolved into ''Play K or Iori or don't bother turning up''. That's not really innovative or fun for most people, and did contribute to STD's decline at the time.


I wouldn't go that far, in either direction really.

Both Legacy and Standard are innovative mostly because of bans/changes to the pool. And no, it was never 'play K' or Iori2 or don't show up', that is another poor-old-me argument based in misconception. I can tell you I play a lot of UFS, I am fairly successful at it, and the biggest problem I have every tournament - deciding what to play and I play to win. Trust you me - worlds was certainly not play those two or bust and you are doing yourself a disservice if you think so. BAD ///

Leyasu
09-05-2014, 12:48 PM
First things first, there is a big difference between each of these three things:

1. Casual Legacy
2. Competitive Legacy
3. Casual Standard 'currently almost =' Competitive Standard

Now, to clear up some confusion, you will note that I pretty much equate casual Standard with Competitive Standard - the reason why is simple, and its great. The standard format has this thing called 'a little pinch of balance', what this means is that most any/all of the characters and symbols in it can take games off one another at any time. This is similar to what Tag said, namely in Legacy about 80% of the cards are flat out unplayable, they don't compare to the other 20%. In standard, about 90% of the cards are playable and compare well with each other...

Basically, you are saying 'if you play casually only, you might as well play with the characters you like and with the cards that are the cheapest'. That is all fine and good and no one will take that away from you.

The problem with this is that MOST players, especially new ones, want to feel like they are improving and playing in a balanced environment where they always have a chance to win if they put in effort. I can guarantee you that your casual Legacy decks have ZERO chance of beating a competitive Legacy deck. That is problematic, so while you may find your Legacy base is growing, they are almost always going to hit a glass ceiling when they play against competitive Legacy decks and their taste for the game will sour, they will quickly realize they aren't having fun because they have no chance to win. That, or they will just not attend Legacy events that are competitive which leads me to my main issue with your post...

However, people did turn up to a Legacy event with their casual decks... and outright hit top 8 ovee the heads of dedicated competitive decks. That either implys that previous tournament winners are bad, or, the diversity of the format leads to unexpected synergies yet to be discovered using those ''bad cards''. This is one of the common fallacies of CCG's in design, with some cards being deliberatly designed to be less powerful in one aspect to a similar card, because their similar functions are not their absolute functions.


being punished for not attending events has become a cited reason for some people quitting

What does this even mean? Attending an event is a rewarding experience - obviously then, relatively speaking, you are 'not rewarded' if you don't attend - equating 'not being rewarded' with 'being punished' is the wrong way to look at it, frankly its self-destructive and anyone who makes that claim had better be prepared to explain what they mean because it appears to be an incredibly blind way of looking at their experience with UFS.

I apologise, I was obviously not clear when I brought this up and presumed that you already knew this information in it's original context. Allow me to explain what I understand of this reason being cited:

While there is an element of reward for people going to tournaments, some people feel that making cards that are promos ''tournament exclusive'' is punishing for those people who can't go to tournaments for work, expense or health reasons. Without a means to attend and without the redemptions program offering certain promos they may never recieve these cards.

My personal opinion on this is that it speaks to two things, of both I believe Jasco are attempting to address - (1) Some people's experience of the game is marred by unsociable behaviour. While my experience has been overwhelmingly positive, especially inlight of my social anxiety, I can understand that some people may not have had the same kindness. This is more a local/playgroup issue than a game issue though (I think?). (2) I have very little experience with the redemption system at all, yet I understand that Jasco is moving towards a policy of making promo characters exclusive for a set amount of time before making them redeemable. This is a sensible policy and I believe it will make the complaint redundant in short time.

Again, apologies for my poor lack of context. I didn't mean to imply that I agree with the reasoning, only that it had been brought up. I miscontrued that it was known information and for that I am in the wrong.


I still believe all players should play all formats of UFS because a) there is a lot of fun to be had playing Legacy, it is different from standard, b) you will become a better standard/legacy player if you have insight into the game more, and you can only get that from playing more diverse decks and strategies something that relies on playing more and with different card pools, and c) there are 'fan-favorites' in Legacy, if you are one of those people that like to play their favorite characters only then Legacy probably suits you more.

I believe if you have the ability to play both then it is definatly beneficial if you enjoy it. If you don't enjoy a paticular format I don't feel that a person should be pressured into playing it, as that is socially deconstructive (bullying). I do agree with your sentiment though, that both are good. A lot of it comes down to personal preference.


In closing (response to you). I think your response is a good one, from the '1' perspective above, but Tim's response related to '2' (why Jasco dropped it competitively), and you are apparently severely disillusioned concerning '3'. Standard continues to be an amazing experience you and others appear to be missing out on due to distribution problems and/or finances, which is a true shame - especially since you have the skill/base from Legacy to very much enjoy Standard (both formats). I speak as a connoisseur of both.

Personally, I understand the reasons behind dropping Legacy as a sanctioned format but I still feel it could have been handled far better instead of simply being dropped. For example a small Legacy event could still be run attached to every standard event but changes could be made to make it 'better' and costless from a Company standpoint. Some options include.

1. You could make it Wandering Master style, 'do you have a Legacy deck?' ok let's throwdown.
2. You could make it single game rounds - 30 mins, top cuts single game rounds except for the final that could be timeless best of three or whatever.
3. You could easily get a group of players/testers to decide on bans, Legacy had been steadily cleaned up and it didn't take a ton of effort to do so.
4. The prize cannot be something like a foundation, standard legal reward makes no sense. Basically, players would pay a $5-$10 fee to enter and something unique / collectible could be the prize, alternate art, an art print, whatever. Players shouldn't be reward-driven to play Legacy, after all with the above changes it would be more about having fun with old cards they can't play anymore

(Sorry, i didn't know where was appropriate to cut this. I'm super crap at foruming).

All of the above is where I stand on this. Hopefully the next Legacy nats will be happening as we have a dedicated group here all testing and wanting to play - not to win, just to have a day out and play some new types of decks to get some new ideas. And that's part of what draws us to legacy - non of us were even aware that Legacy had ''you make the card'' - we were just playing because we enjoy the atmosphere more (more fun focused than ''win at all costs'' focus). The rewards we got were also great (2 boosters from each of the KOF sets). This helped build Standard collections as much as it did Legacy ones.


There are just a lot of things that could be done to have players still drag Legacy decks to events to have fun/compete with them, while addressing the issue of 'time' and 'cost' to the Company. Side events are side events, and the dropping of Legacy 'in my eyes (personal opinion)' as someone that is committed to UFS and a sincere proponent of Jasco and all of its staff can only be explained as the 'lazy course of action'.

The 'hard working course of action' would go far not to alienate your older players while at the same time bridging old players to Standard (the Ley's and her group would be incentivized to play Standard coming from Legacy) while bridging new players to Legacy (they would be rewarded knowing about the games roots and would be better players). That is the course of action Jasco should and can still take.

TLDR, I think dropping Legacy altogether was a bad decision. Ley offers good response from the Casual Legacy player perspective only. Standard is great, Legacy is great, play both - but refer to my earlier post if just wondering what to 'buy'.

Haha, thank you, but I'm actually a guy. My partner is called Roo, a sweet dyslexic girl with social anxiety issues. You can use the female tense if it makes you more comfortable with me though ^-^

I agree with your view on how Jasco has handled Legacy. We would have more players arrive at events from both groups if they supported each other. I previously mentioned that reorganising both Nats to be across a weekend would be great. Then have both formats Teams Nats on the same weekend. Boom, instant problem solved, with many people arriving for both events which means better interaction with the game. Sadly, this was shot down previously as untennable.

My position is the same for what to buy though, it depends on what the original poster wants. Which audience do you feel comfortable being part of? What interaction do you want to have with the game?

Also, alike as I apologised to the other person, I am autistic and I get my words jumbled. I also know I can sound mean or belitting. I deeply apologise if I've caused any offence due to my language barrier, and hope that I contributed to this discussion in a positive way rather than a negative one =)

Cetonis
09-05-2014, 01:05 PM
My point is there has been no steps to explain this officially

Jasco doesn't explain anything properly. They never even circled back to rescind the "availability" gaffe from last week. That's a broader matter, not particularly specific to this topic and not especially appropriate for me to salt about in here.

I'm not sure what you mean by "bridging", but that's something that would have to happen on a local (i.e. not some event at Gencon) level. These legacy-only groups are comprised of people who either cannot / refuse to buy new cards, categorically hate rotation, and/or are vastly delusional about what standard is like.

And none of them will board a plane to go to a legacy event, (though UK folk can mostly drive between major cities I assume) so there is no "maybe people who came to Worlds for legacy will try out standard for kicks". So how do you expose them to standard aside from just going there with tins and getting them to play, and what part of that requires a Jasco-managed side event at Gencon?

As for the UK, there is literally nothing stopping them from having a "Legacy Nationals" alongside Standard with some other prize if they do have the traveling Legacy-only players that don't exist over here. Maybe the ban list won't be updated? I'm sure they know how to spell "Dramatic Monologue" and add it to a list they announce in advance.

---------------------------------

Besides, in some fairness, I don't think Jasco ever said they were flat refusing to ever care about Legacy, they just said they weren't going to do cardboard events anymore. I don't personally know of any other plans for it, but the odds that I would are only 80-90% or so at best.

"They aren't going to officially support it" were my own words; note that (a) I don't speak for them even though I wind up having to try to explain things in their place, and (b) my definition of "official support" means you're including it in the new rules document, maintaining bans/errata, adding it to the "oracle" when it's created, etc.

I do know for certain that those (b) things aren't happening, at least not anytime soon, so in my mind it's not officially supported. This doesn't actually change anything save for the lack of cardboard events, but it will mean a lot more in a year or so when there are hopefully-stable / solid rules and judging and such for Standard and Extended but not Legacy.

dutpotd
09-05-2014, 01:09 PM
Also, alike as I apologised to the other person, I am autistic and I get my words jumbled. I also know I can sound mean or belitting. I deeply apologise if I've caused any offence due to my language barrier, and hope that I contributed to this discussion in a positive way rather than a negative one =)

You have, and no need to worry about how you come across - I know I rarely do myself :)

In response to your more recent post.

1. I won't comment on the results of UK Legacy Nats. Suffice it to say the top 4 of any Legacy event held in North America usually contains two usual suspects and two new types of decks, but the same can be said for Standard. Just take my word for it as someone that plays both, there is a much larger gap between what works in Legacy and what doesn't than what works in Standard and what doesn't.

2. There is not a single card that is tournament exclusive, all promos are awarded through prize support at some point or simply need to be traded for. The belief that there are exclusives is in error and I suggest you spend some time breaking it down for anyone that says as much. If you think I am wrong, please feel free to elaborate and I will do so as well.

3. If there is demand for a Legacy only event which there appears to be in the UK, and has been for years, then by all means that is a good thing. That is a strong example of the biggest oversight Jasco is making in flat dropping Legacy, attendance in North America was going up as bans were making the format more accessible, and in the UK it was always a good event - the current course of action would appear to be a slap in the face to both, or at least not optimal - the latter is what I am talking about, reaching an optimal state through a little creative work/compromise.

NJBrock22
09-05-2014, 01:13 PM
it's as i said in the online subforum, those of us who care about legacy(eventhough that is not may main format) if you still wanna play it, it is up to YOU to get the word out there that you want to play it and have players around you that want to play it, including if you wanna modify the banned list or anything else(i remember the French players doing that a year or so back), but considering the format is now no longer official i guess it's up to us now... and as was stated Earlier, sadly the UK/Europe seems to have a VASTLY different meta/view on the game than we in the States/Canada do especially in playstyle and what format is seen as better... personally i know when i start up my playgroup down here i'm gonna be starting with Legacy cards(i own ZERO cards from Jason...) and will be easing them into the newer stuff as i go, i also believe it should be up to US to decide which format we run for our events regardless but that's another subject for a later date... also giving everyone a heads up i am planning on running an OCTGN based Legacy tournament on Sunday for those interested either PM me or check in to the chat room when ya get a chance(baring technical issues we should be able to get it done quick).

N.J.

Tagrineth
09-05-2014, 01:13 PM
I didn't find this. Perhaps this is your personal experience, but it hasn't been mine. In fact, the people who were playing the best of the best only got into top 8, with the highest decks coming down more to player skill and unexpected synergies.

I'm sorry, but no, that's not how Legacy works.

It sounds like you guys at UK Nats had a LARGE portion of players show up just to :):):):) around and play, not specifically testing and optimising their Legacy decks to win the event. There's a huge difference between these two concepts. I feel like if, for example, Gencon 2013's Order Tycho or Evil Truong had shown up... or maybe something more like JRay's Order Seong MiNa from US Nats 2014... you would probably understand more where I'm coming from with this. The Legacy juggernauts are definitely a thing, and there's a reason every legacy event has been followed by about ten new bans.


Creativity is at it's strongest when resources are limited. This is a basic fact of human psychology.

I could get "creative" and run a bunch of fodder attacks that all check 2s because Sabretooth seemed to think that should be the standard control for attacks - creative does not mean good and speaking as an oldschool player who built lots of off-the-beaten-path killer decks back in the day (oh man Evil Ryu mmmmm), the room for decks like those in the CURRENT competitive Legacy environment is very very small.


That isn't correct, again. Player skill can outmatch powerful cards - it always can. Also, I'm speaking about experience at Nationals, and again, only about 3 people I knew of cared as much to try to win. Non of them even got into the top 8. Most of the people there were doing so just for fun. So unilateral statements don't ring true for everyone everywhere.

Always? :):):):) no it can't. After watching Scott Gaines and Scott Sundman at Gencon 2013 only drop games to each other with that ludicrous Order Tycho deck until Garett was finally able to beat Sundman in a 3 hour long Ro4 match? No. And from what I recall from the last sanctioned Legacy event - one that I sadly missed - the Dramatic Monologue combo deck completely stomped the tar out of everyone present and won by turn 3 every single game the entire event. Creativity isn't going to beat something like that unless you literally build a deck full of nothing but counterspells, at which point you'll just lose to something like Truong.





Actually, it was this year. Though I'm guessing that the UK Playerbase is different to the US one. Also, adjusting for scale, the STD tournament had about 14 people. The Legacy one had over 20. I don't see how that's STD being more popular than Legacy.

And I can also explain why: some people dusted off old cards to come play Legacy. They did alright, and had fun. These people quit or abstain from STD because of rotation.

Sounds like you had a bunch of casual minded players get together with old junk that they didn't optimise to win. That's fine, there's nothing wrong with that, but that's definitely a healthy level of confirmation bias - you're basing your view of competitive legacy off ONE event that wasn't even a competitive one?


Also, Legacy is a constant hot bed of innovation. STD recently devolved into ''Play K or Iori or don't bother turning up''. That's not really innovative or fun for most people, and did contribute to STD's decline at the time.

The last Jasco sanctioned legacy event in the US was completely dominated by a combo deck that never needed more than 3 turns the whole event. So yeah... the "hotbed" of innovation => whomever finds the most degenerate interaction probably wins the event. That's NOT a good format .......




If you're only after what you've seen other people play and win with, of course you're going to think the cards are rubbish. Heck, the current decks dominating STD were regarded as terrible... until they dominated STD and shot up in price. Monetive Speculation is not indicitive of player skill, either.

I'm sorry what? Iori was expected to be super strong from the moment he was previewed, and DTS K' only took one single event for people to see that it was one of the stronger decks in the format. Neither deck was ever regarded as "terrible". That's completely backwards.


Oh, and I had no problem getting those old boxes. They were more expensive, yes. But they're only inaccessible if you don't believe they're worth the extra $30 people charge from them - and it's quickly balanced by other boxes being $30 lower.

You found sealed boxes of Realm of Midnight in the last two years? That's... actually legitimately surprising. I'm not talking about price premiums, man. I'm talking those boxes don't EXIST anymore over here. There aren't any boxes of Realm of Midnight, price premium or no. None of the old shops that used to carry UFS still have them - at GenCon there were a couple booths with a lot of legacy boxes, ZERO Realm of Midnight. They don't go up for sale online ever. The only Realm of Midnight sealed box I've been made aware of in the last few years was one that Bo Tucker saved for his collection.

$30 more would be all well and good but there's nobody selling them here.




Erm, no. Maybe I wasn't clear and you weren't aware I'm autistic and can get words jumbled up, and thus misread the context, but it was definatly not me devaluing my previous point.

Legacy is a fine tournament format. Diversity vs ''play one of these two decks or just lose, period'' and a growing playerbase which is including more and more people leaving STD (again, a common thing in CCG's - people quit over rotation and it's constant ''subscription'' style necessity of buying more sets).

Every Legacy event in the US in the last couple years has been thoroughly dominated by two or three superstrong decks. And even at Worlds this year, it wasn't 'these two decks', there were at least 5 or 6 decks people were truly watching to dominate (Jack Lambourne, K', Iori2, Phil Birch, Vespera) and the event wasn't even won by one of those decks. That and one of the decks people were expecting to show up big (Birch) ended up falling flat and not even making top cuts. Meanwhile we had Miska and Joe Hill in the top cut, as well as stuff like Takuma and Protoman going 4-2 and barely missing the cutoff. You have a really bizarre view of Standard.


I organise trades for Labores Somnium members in a group on Facebook called ''UFS UK Players'' (I think that's it's name. It might be slightly rearranged). I also buy old trade folders in whole so people can afford to buy more boxes or singles they need. It's a fine arrangement =)

I'm on there. Maybe I'll post something about my legacy junk there later.

dutpotd
09-05-2014, 01:21 PM
(b) my definition of "official support" means you're including it in the new rules document, maintaining bans/errata, adding it to the "oracle" when it's created, etc.


I think you know I'm not disagreeing with them not doing these things.

Your idea of official support contrasts with what I consider support. Support is offering some sort of semi-competitive option at events where other more serious ones are held.

I agree, based on your definition which would be onerous beyond the benefit derived, Jasco should not officially support Legacy to the same extent it should support Standard/Extended. However, they should continue to support Legacy to the extent that matches the benefit they can get from it - the no support / (do it yourself) approach is not at all optimal given it leaves a lot of players in the lurch, abandons the roots of the game, and doesn't help move that old product still there (slight to game store owners that carry it?), and so on and so forth.

They didn't flat refuse to never care about Legacy again, I'm not saying they did, but to date they have shown it go from a playable side event that was growing in participation to dropped completely, no middle ground, that is what I mean by bridging - slowly lowering support (changing from what you consider 'official' to a more ad hoc form of support) or getting to that sweet spot that doesn't take them more resources than is appropriate based on the pros/benefits associated with not dropping it off completely.

HypeMan!
09-05-2014, 02:42 PM
One thing that got mentioned, and that we've seemed to completely gloss over, was that the number of legacy players had been growing up to this year. Simply by the nature of TCG/CCGs, the pool of players looking to play legacy will continue to grow as more and more people acquire cards that they want to play and can't play in standard. The way card games, and precedents set by other companies, grow and function, not having Legacy recognized is a glaring omission.

Tag, I don't think you have a firm grasp or experience on legacy from your perspective, the nature of the larger cardpool causes things level out. There's more counters across the board, and it mitigates how powerful a lot of strategies are. You can make a very viable legacy deck without dropping a crap ton of money. There are a few power cards still, but pretty much all of them have answers, especially when you take the current standard pool into consideration. My deck has like 3 different rares that I would label as 'needed', and the only chase power card is Cess Seal, and I really don't need to be playing it. And on top of everything, there's nothing stopping someone from playing a standard legal deck in Legacy. Hell I've done it and seen people do it, and you can get some pretty good results. Availability of cards and monetary restrictions will never be a valid argument for or against a game that requires money to play. Trading and Collectible are used for a reason. It would be the same logic fallacy if I don't have any Team K' or Divine Trib, so therefore we should ban those cards because they're unavailable to some people.

As for being 'officially supported' and requiring judge support, rulings, etc, the only reason we don't have this is because we don't have it. If legacy wasn't being constantly beat back with a stick, by shear exposure and frequency, precedents and rulings would be common and there'd be no discussion about weird interactions, they would be known, or taking the game rules and applying them to interactions to make a decision and set precedent. For judges, you know, if judges were compensated or rewarded for their time instead being expected to just volunteer out of the goodness of their hearts, I doubt there would be a problem with that either.

Cetonis
09-05-2014, 03:04 PM
As for being 'officially supported' and requiring judge support, rulings, etc, the only reason we don't have this is because we don't have it. If legacy wasn't being constantly beat back with a stick, by shear exposure and frequency, precedents and rulings would be common and there'd be no discussion about weird interactions, they would be known, or taking the game rules and applying them to interactions to make a decision and set precedent. For judges, you know, if judges were compensated or rewarded for their time instead being expected to just volunteer out of the goodness of their hearts, I doubt there would be a problem with that either.

The "precedent" model is not a real way to handle rules. I'm talking about a legitimate, comprehensive rulebook complete with a card database with updated / corrected wordings etc. That's not going to just happen on its own simply by having more Legacy matches played.


One thing that got mentioned, and that we've seemed to completely gloss over, was that the number of legacy players had been growing up to this year

Has it? Or were there just more people at Vegas for standard who didn't have anything better to do that morning? If a Legacy-only event were held in North America, no more than 5-10 people who couldn't drive to it would show up. That's not a growing format, that's a side event format.

And holding side events just so you can pretend to support it, while stopping anyone who actually cares from stepping in and handling the format better, is no more than a cute symbolic gesture that does more harm to the capacity for people to play legacy than it does good.

dutpotd
09-05-2014, 03:17 PM
And holding side events just so you can pretend to support it, while stopping anyone who actually cares from stepping in and handling the format better, is no more than a cute symbolic gesture that does more harm to the capacity for people to play legacy than it does good.

Tim, I agree with everything you said before this - to Thomas.

But here is the point I'm trying to make relative to what you say here:

1) holding a side event where people can play a format that they find fun isn't pretending to support it, it is supporting it and the people that find it fun. That is what is lacking here/now.

More importantly, 2) you are assuming that Jasco holding a small side event stops others who care more about it from getting involved. Maybe, but that argument - even if true - is currently moot.

I'm saying its the other way around, no one is stepping in - certainly no one stepped in for worlds, yet there is still some benefit to be had from supporting (not official supporting per the time/effort you and I know would be required) by way of side event. Therefore, why not give it that minor support, especially given history shows 30 people have nothing better to do and enjoy it? And x other people wouldn't be miffed about the way its handled, going from something to nothing seems inappropriate, when the optimal approach is probably just something less than what existed before.

And yes, the follow-up argument is there needs to be 'time' to see if someone does step in.

In any case, I hope you get my point, I certainly get yours and the reasons for the dropping of the format.

Cetonis
09-05-2014, 04:01 PM
Yeah. My order of preference is

1) Full fledged official support by Jasco < -- not feasible / justifiable

2) A well-run Legacy circuit / side event series of some sort handled by a non-Jasco group <-- this would be the optimal outcome for Legacy players, regardless of how it reflects on Jasco itself

3) Minimal side event support here and there by Jasco <-- this might be tricky given that they want to fashion Turbo into a go-to side event

4) No Legacy at all ever

Like you said, it's going to take some time to see if (2) happens. It was clear that nobody was going to do it so long as there were official cardboard events and a Jasco-managed ban list etc., but now that there's a clear void and a handful of people claiming they have groups that want big Legacy tournaments, there's no reason why something can't be put together - unless the bulk of the complaining is just hot air from people who like complaining.

dutpotd
09-05-2014, 04:20 PM
unless the bulk of the complaining is just hot air from people who like complaining.

Tim, I don't know a single person like that, its umpossible that this is the case.

I think we are in full agreement.

Personally, I'm skeptical 2) will happen. And including the words Turbo in 3) means I don't know what to think, I shouldn't knock it until I try it of course.

4) seems lazy/wrong to me, but that wouldn't all fall on Jasco of course and I'm sorry if I made it sound like it would.

Time will tell.

HypeMan!
09-05-2014, 04:54 PM
The "precedent" model is not a real way to handle rules. I'm talking about a legitimate, comprehensive rulebook complete with a card database with updated / corrected wordings etc. That's not going to just happen on its own simply by having more Legacy matches played.


But that mentality doesn't hold up because we don't have a rulebook. The precedent model is a completely real way to handle rules so much so that that's the way we've been having to work until now, and it's just being converted into a living-model. So why stop at legacy? The only jump is putting the minimal effort into typing things up as the become an issue. And by having more legacy matches played, people become more familiar with interactions, so there's less necessity to have on the fly calls vs pointing to a ruling and written note. If something new pops up, make a decision, put it in writing, go forward. Nothing gets done if you keep a stance of waiting for something to just pop into existence.



Has it? Or were there just more people at Vegas for standard who didn't have anything better to do that morning? If a Legacy-only event were held in North America, no more than 5-10 people who couldn't drive to it would show up. That's not a growing format, that's a side event format.

And holding side events just so you can pretend to support it, while stopping anyone who actually cares from stepping in and handling the format better, is no more than a cute symbolic gesture that does more harm to the capacity for people to play legacy than it does good.

There's either a hypocrisy argument here or just lack of understanding. Who said anything about a Legacy only event for people to show up to, having side event is fine, but more people is still more people. It doesn't make sense for people to want to play and the reaction to be "go away". Pretending to support it is a whole lot better than telling people that you don't care about them or the product you are making. And as of right now, that's what it sounds like, "we don't care about our product or our consumers."

Leyasu
09-05-2014, 07:08 PM
I wouldn't go that far, in either direction really.

Both Legacy and Standard are innovative mostly because of bans/changes to the pool. And no, it was never 'play K' or Iori2 or don't show up', that is another poor-old-me argument based in misconception. I can tell you I play a lot of UFS, I am fairly successful at it, and the biggest problem I have every tournament - deciding what to play and I play to win. Trust you me - worlds was certainly not play those two or bust and you are doing yourself a disservice if you think so. BAD ///

Again, apologies. I was rushing my answer so I didn't have time to go over my post and correct my wording. In hindsight, I should of worded it ''to my understanding before the recent bannings'' to my statement, but I clearly failed out again =(

dutpotd
09-05-2014, 07:21 PM
Again, apologies. I was rushing my answer so I didn't have time to go over my post and correct my wording. In hindsight, I should of worded it ''to my understanding before the recent bannings'' to my statement, but I clearly failed out again =(

Nope, no apologies necessary. I'm simply saying that 'feeling' that something is more dominant than it is - isn't healthy for new or old players, nor do I agree with it in this case. Has nothing to do with you being wrong, I just don't like that 'sentiment' in general.

Leyasu
09-05-2014, 07:47 PM
I'm sorry, but no, that's not how Legacy works.

It sounds like you guys at UK Nats had a LARGE portion of players show up just to :):):):) around and play, not specifically testing and optimising their Legacy decks to win the event. There's a huge difference between these two concepts. I feel like if, for example, Gencon 2013's Order Tycho or Evil Truong had shown up... or maybe something more like JRay's Order Seong MiNa from US Nats 2014... you would probably understand more where I'm coming from with this. The Legacy juggernauts are definitely a thing, and there's a reason every legacy event has been followed by about ten new bans.

Tycho and Truong were both on the ban list when our Legacy Nationals happened, so I don't know if we had a different meta to you. There was a few people who copied decks off the net, but some of the more experienced players were either playing others decks for a laugh, or, just changed which deck they played so there was more diversity. Honestly, it was more fun because people were not as focused on winning as much as seeing how crazily the game could be broken and generally having fun. I'd like to think I made some friends that day - it was really a cool time.


I could get "creative" and run a bunch of fodder attacks that all check 2s because Sabretooth seemed to think that should be the standard control for attacks - creative does not mean good and speaking as an oldschool player who built lots of off-the-beaten-path killer decks back in the day (oh man Evil Ryu mmmmm), the room for decks like those in the CURRENT competitive Legacy environment is very very small.

Perhaps this is true... to an extent. I see the new Lilith and think ''can be done''. I also have an Akuma in this group that does that and can infinite combo out. It's pretty hilarious. So I still believe innovation is important, mostly bred from limitation.



Always? :):):):) no it can't. After watching Scott Gaines and Scott Sundman at Gencon 2013 only drop games to each other with that ludicrous Order Tycho deck until Garett was finally able to beat Sundman in a 3 hour long Ro4 match? No. And from what I recall from the last sanctioned Legacy event - one that I sadly missed - the Dramatic Monologue combo deck completely stomped the tar out of everyone present and won by turn 3 every single game the entire event. Creativity isn't going to beat something like that unless you literally build a deck full of nothing but counterspells, at which point you'll just lose to something like Truong.

Truong is banned and Dramatic Monlogue is going to be banned. So I'm not seeing a problem with either of those.

Formats that don't have a proper ban list are going to need breaking in half to rid itself of it's most degenerate, format-warping cards. Once they're gone however, there is nothing stopping the format from blooming further. Also your tone suggests you make the assumption all players focus solely on winning and nothing more - it is possible for people to be competitive and expressive, building new things or refining ignored interactions within the game that can suprise people. The future is bright only if you work towards it and maintain a positive outlook.


Sounds like you had a bunch of casual minded players get together with old junk that they didn't optimise to win. That's fine, there's nothing wrong with that, but that's definitely a healthy level of confirmation bias - you're basing your view of competitive legacy off ONE event that wasn't even a competitive one?

See, this is where I get annoyed. You're insinuating that I suffer confirmatian bias, while yourself showing ideology rejection. You can't assert that the event was any less competitive just because people played new ideas. Perhaps you'd like to speak to the several people who have their own cards there, all who played decks off the beaten path just as competitively as anyone else. Mike Hardiman illustrated a whole new smackdown on me which was awesome - I learned stuff, he helped me with my confidence in dealing with new people, gave me some advice for building decks for other people, and was generally fun - and did well using a character card I didn't even know existed.

And that's the thing - you're implying that creativity and innovation are mutually exclusive to competivity and winning. And in this you're simply wrong - if they were mutually exclusive, there would not ever be a change in the decks played in a format, and no new deck archetypes would ever rise or fall.


The last Jasco sanctioned legacy event in the US was completely dominated by a combo deck that never needed more than 3 turns the whole event. So yeah... the "hotbed" of innovation => whomever finds the most degenerate interaction probably wins the event. That's NOT a good format .......

That's somewhat an artifact of CCG design, and the more pieces to utilise the more degenerate the possibilities. While it's true that some people will break the format left and right-ways, it's somewhat necessary as I mention so that the format can be tended to and allowed to grow without being choked out like a kudzu bush (I hope that analogy is understandable).

Also, as I understand, the recent Iori deck that appeared to dominate Standard from the echoes on the Facebook boards seemed to kill often by turn 2. In fact, I can quote Ben Davis in regards to the K deck, with "I don't know why anyone would use K, the deck is boring as :):):):) to play''. If the main ''money'' format that breeds hostility in the social atmosphere the players are enveloped in and the format is considered boring, how is that a good format?


I'm sorry what? Iori was expected to be super strong from the moment he was previewed, and DTS K' only took one single event for people to see that it was one of the stronger decks in the format. Neither deck was ever regarded as "terrible". That's completely backwards.

Sigh. Decks consist of more than a charatcer. There is the cards that are needed to make the deck function - like the cogs of a clock that make the hands tick. Many of those cards were considered poor at first, but later gained notoriety. This is, again, a common issue in CCG design with no simple remedy or discountablity.

An example is how many people (as I understand) considered the card ''Fool Me Twice'' to be absoloutly useless - right until someone pointed out that it could be used against Penance (pre-bannings). Then the card was seen more favourably. As more people then seek to acquire the card, it becomes scarcer, and it's price increases. While this effect is felt more or less prominently with different cards, it is still an inherent part of CCG design.


You found sealed boxes of Realm of Midnight in the last two years? That's... actually legitimately surprising. I'm not talking about price premiums, man. I'm talking those boxes don't EXIST anymore over here. There aren't any boxes of Realm of Midnight, price premium or no. None of the old shops that used to carry UFS still have them - at GenCon there were a couple booths with a lot of legacy boxes, ZERO Realm of Midnight. They don't go up for sale online ever. The only Realm of Midnight sealed box I've been made aware of in the last few years was one that Bo Tucker saved for his collection.

$30 more would be all well and good but there's nobody selling them here.

Really? I found them super easy in various online stores for the EU, and especially Ebay UK. Maybe I'm just lucky? (He says right before cat knocks coffee over the floor -.-).

I apologise, I presumed that most people who really wanted something would not have a problem importing things from other places. My import charges are greatly reduced due to my work, so I sometimes forget this is a factor for other people. Though it seems to be a trade-off, as the only source for boxes of Tides of Vengence I have is in America, the one country I hate shipping from -.-


Every Legacy event in the US in the last couple years has been thoroughly dominated by two or three superstrong decks. And even at Worlds this year, it wasn't 'these two decks', there were at least 5 or 6 decks people were truly watching to dominate (Jack Lambourne, K', Iori2, Phil Birch, Vespera) and the event wasn't even won by one of those decks. That and one of the decks people were expecting to show up big (Birch) ended up falling flat and not even making top cuts. Meanwhile we had Miska and Joe Hill in the top cut, as well as stuff like Takuma and Protoman going 4-2 and barely missing the cutoff. You have a really bizarre view of Standard.

I'm on there. Maybe I'll post something about my legacy junk there later.

Firstly, I want it to be clear I'm assuming you meant Standard for this entire paragraph, because talking in terms of the second sentence for Legacy doesn't make sense.

In terms of Standard, it sounds a lot like the innovation factor (to an extent) took many people by suprise. A logical rationale of this is that because certain deck types became too oppressive, many people plotted (meta'd?) against them - due to this large influx of decks designed to destroy those few, there was an actual lack of appearance made by the very decks they wanted to hate out. This would of given way to a more diverse event with more random and unpredictable results, as the balance of power had shifted (or, maybe the groundwork of familiarity?), and so people had to adjust on the fly.

Also, if there is a paticular set of stuff you're selling, I'm happy to look over a list and agree a price if it so suits us both. As I mentioned, I buy entire old trade folders for the benefit of Labores Somnium members =) - (specificall looking for power ups for Roo's Taki deck and some of whatever Demitiri and Morrigan's castles are called)

Tagrineth
09-05-2014, 08:37 PM
An example is how many people (as I understand) considered the card ''Fool Me Twice'' to be absoloutly useless - right until someone pointed out that it could be used against Penance (pre-bannings). Then the card was seen more favourably. As more people then seek to acquire the card, it becomes scarcer, and it's price increases. While this effect is felt more or less prominently with different cards, it is still an inherent part of CCG design.

Huh? From what I can recall most people thought FMT was great right off the bat because it was good against both Penance and When the Moon. At the very least it did not take very long AT ALL to become one of the more chased rares in the set...


Firstly, I want it to be clear I'm assuming you meant Standard for this entire paragraph, because talking in terms of the second sentence for Legacy doesn't make sense.

First sentence was about Legacy. The rest was Standard. Sorry yeah the transition was bad. I was in a rush to finish the post since I had to go to work. My point was that while the big guns all showed up in Standard, your bizarre notion that Standard is "just one or two decks" is completely false. Standard is loaded with innovation.

Cetonis
09-06-2014, 09:32 AM
But that mentality doesn't hold up because we don't have a rulebook. The precedent model is a completely real way to handle rules so much so that that's the way we've been having to work until now, and it's just being converted into a living-model.

Please ask any judge if they feel the current model is a real way to handle rules. And in no way is the new rulebook just some compilation of random rulings, if that were true it wouldn't have taken so long. In fact, a great number of the random "precedents" are being changed. It's about making a proper set of rules that actually works in a reasonably consistent and non-subjective way.

And you can't build something like that gradually. There is no "just add rulings to the book as they come up." Some things won't fit with the way things are structured without a wording update, others might require adding entire new subsections, etc. In order to match the rigor the new rulebook is aiming for, it would take a group of people spending at least a few months hammering out what needs to be added where.


There's either a hypocrisy argument here or just lack of understanding. Who said anything about a Legacy only event for people to show up to, having side event is fine, but more people is still more people. It doesn't make sense for people to want to play and the reaction to be "go away". Pretending to support it is a whole lot better than telling people that you don't care about them or the product you are making. And as of right now, that's what it sounds like, "we don't care about our product or our consumers."

Last I knew, Jasco wasn't printing any boxes of Dark Path, nor have they ever sold any. And you can make the argument "people want to play a format, so you should have side events for it" for any number of things. What if people want to do drafts? What if they actually like whatever Turbo turns out to be? What if they want to have King of the Hill running at Nats/Worlds? What if there's a set coming out the week or two after the event, and they want to do a pre-release? You can't do side events for all of these things either.

So I think at best you'd be looking at Wandering Master maybe? And then this whole argument boils down to whether the person handing out the chips is wearing a Jasco polo or a Crescent City Games shirt. Not a huge deal to me personally, and I don't see why anyone should care that much so long as whoever is running it is doing a good job. Jasco is going to support Extended, so any recent cards you buy will retain value over the long haul - that's the most important thing.

The Hurricane
09-06-2014, 03:38 PM
Firstly, I very much enjoyed reading this thread as I love playing Legacy for the same reasons as Garett. It gives you more insight as a player and helps you in all aspects of the game, especially paying attention to what both you AND your opponent are doing.

Secondly, I would like to address the 'tournament exclusive cards'. No card is tournament exclusive. You will be able to get them through redemption and hopefully, eventually through organized play. The Redemption list was finished today and will be up Monday. So, as long as you have packs with skulls laying around (which I assume most people do), you will be able to get the tournament 'exclusive' cards next week.

Lastly, Jasco games never said they are giving up on Legacy. We are just not giving away cardboard or hosting them at major level events (ie Worlds/Nationals). We are perfectly fine with having a group of dedicated legacy players get together and create a legacy tournament. If you get enough players interested Jasco Games would definitely be willing to put our stamp of approval on said group, direct legacy enthusiasts to them, and support that tournament with prize support.

On the subject of Legacy prize support, if said situation becomes an actual thing, I have been talking with Jason and we may be able to do something that could be very beneficial for players. I can't quite talk about specifics currently because it deals with some licensing issues, but if there is/will be enough interest in legacy it is not a path we will ignore.

I hope this sheds at least a little light on the situation.