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aslum
11-01-2010, 11:46 AM
Assumption one: Keywords are printed in the textbox.
Assumption two: Removing them (EG w/ an R of some kind) wouldn't affect Kaden, as they're still printed.
Assumption three: Adding keywords ("Your next attack gains the Throw keyword") wouldn't stop him either if he plays an attack w/ a blank textbox as it's still printed blank.
Assumption four: Multiples have no printed values therefore their textboxes are printed blank?!

How much of this is true? The only one I'm reasonably unsure of is the last one.

Shinguyi
11-01-2010, 12:15 PM
Assumption One: Correct:

2.14 Keywords
Keywords appear in the text boxes of many cards. There are two different types of keywords: Keyword
Traits, and Keyword Abilities.

Assumption Two: Correct. Keywords even when removed are still printed.

Assumption Three: Correct, as long as the attack had a printed blank text box.

Assumption Four: I have to say Correct. No printed values so everything is blank. An example would be when having to reference "Printed" something such as damage or control. Effects will always look at null or 0 as a number. Would need a clearer ruling since when you play the multiple copies their effects would fizzle (if you gave them Stun: 1 or Powerful: 3 with Kaden) after the current attack resolves unless the ruling is until that specific attack resolves. Only thing I could find was:

2.14.2.4.3 Multiple copies have no printed values of their own. The
face down card is only the representation of an attack, and
anything that references printed values of the attack will return a
“null” (or “zero” for a number).

The thing with the multiple copies is that you technically "play" them when you put them into your card pool, so you would respond with Kaden when the attacks hit the card pool after paying the multiple cost.

SMazzurco
11-01-2010, 12:19 PM
One more.

"Character Only"

As in "Algol Combo" on Najim whatever it is.

Character only keywords are "not on the card", but are they still "printed' on the card?

Shinguyi
11-01-2010, 12:31 PM
Knowing how the ruling for those cards work, I have to say they are still printed but when referencing keywords it is not there (unless you are the character) since cards used for that ruling don't reference printed keywords (like Paid to Protect).

As for the Multiple thing, other thing I found was:
2.13.2 Effects will last until the end of the turn they are played unless otherwise stated.

So it makes me think it is possible to give Multiple copies the Powerful: 3. At the same time, it contradicts a ruling with Clones... ^^;

Guess its best to wait for Tagrineth or Jasco.

Zues9105
11-01-2010, 12:55 PM
the multiples do not get the powerful because Kadens Ability says when you play an attack and technically you only use the multiple on the attack you played to begin with ie you did not play the attack rather used an ability atleast thats my opinion but could be wrong but i dont think so

SMazzurco
11-01-2010, 12:55 PM
Knowing how the ruling for those cards work, I have to say they are still printed but when referencing keywords it is not there (unless you are the character) since cards used for that ruling don't reference printed keywords (like Paid to Protect).

As for the Multiple thing, other thing I found was:
2.13.2 Effects will last until the end of the turn they are played unless otherwise stated.

So it makes me think it is possible to give Multiple copies the Powerful: 3. At the same time, it contradicts a ruling with Clones... ^^;

Guess its best to wait for Tagrineth or Jasco.

Multiple copies do not have blank PRINTED text boxes. They have no PRINTED text box. They have BLANK Text boxes, but not BLANK PRINTED text boxes...

Shinguyi
11-01-2010, 01:00 PM
Multiple copies do not have blank PRINTED text boxes. They have no PRINTED text box. They have BLANK Text boxes, but not BLANK PRINTED text boxes...

Makes sense. Guess the "null" says it all.

aslum
11-01-2010, 01:16 PM
the multiples do not get the powerful because Kadens Ability says when you play an attack and technically you only use the multiple on the attack you played to begin with ie you did not play the attack rather used an ability atleast thats my opinion but could be wrong but i dont think so

Multiples definitively can not get the Stun:1, Breaker:1 from the R: because you don't "play" them. Powerful is a static effect, and is not keyed upon it being played.

@SMazzurco: The problem here comes down to semantics. My understanding of the definition of Blank and Printed would be a text box with nothing printed in it. Or that since a face down card is blank, and the multiple copy does have a text box (regardless of what is in it) it is a printed blank textbox.

If you wanted to be a jerk about it, technically NO cards have printed blank textboxes because they all have some background colors printed in them, and that's not blank.

I think we are going to have to wait for Jasco on this, as the only way we can know for sure is for the designer to tell us. The word's definitions can be interpreted several different ways. /:

SMazzurco
11-01-2010, 01:35 PM
a face down card has NO printed text box. The text box IS the "color" as you described it. Blank means without text.

A face down/multiple copy has NO printed text box. Therefore it does not HAVE a blank printed text box. (if you have NO printed text box then you obviously cannot have a blank one".

It's basically the same thing as Holding Ground vs Multiples. They have NO printed damage. A multiple copy by definition has "a blank text box", but not a PRINTED blank text box.

I think people are overthinking this one

aslum
11-01-2010, 02:17 PM
What is printed in a multiple's textbox? Nothing. Therefore it's blank. Hence a printed blank textbox. However we could go round and round to no avail.
I'm not saying I can't see your interpretation SMazzurco, but I am less confident of it then mine. Seeing as the card isn't even legal yet, I think we can afford to wait until Jason has time to make a ruling on this.

SMazzurco
11-01-2010, 02:20 PM
What is printed in a multiple's textbox? Nothing. Therefore it's blank. Hence a printed blank textbox.

/facepalm. IT IS NOT PRINTED ON A MULTIPLE COPY. MULTIPLE COPIES HAVE NO PRINTED VALUES.

What is printed in a multiple's textbox? Nothing.
What is printed in a multiple's PRINTED text box. IT DOES NOT HAVE ONE.

RAWR!

DabalRowRaizah
11-01-2010, 04:49 PM
considering multiples do not even have a printed text box, multiple copies do not get powerful 3.

EscarcegaGuy
11-01-2010, 05:54 PM
/facepalm. IT IS NOT PRINTED ON A MULTIPLE COPY. MULTIPLE COPIES HAVE NO PRINTED VALUES.

What is printed in a multiple's textbox? Nothing.
What is printed in a multiple's PRINTED text box. IT DOES NOT HAVE ONE.

RAWR!

LOL @ this whole thread. Mostly this post, and by that I mean it was a funny post not that this was wrong. I really didn't think Kaden's ability was that hard to figure out.

SMazzurco
11-01-2010, 09:36 PM
LOL @ this whole thread. Mostly this post, and by that I mean it was a funny post not that this was wrong. I really didn't think Kaden's ability was that hard to figure out.

;)

P.S. Post too short rule STILL sucks