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View Full Version : Legacy - I played it, or it played me?



dutpotd
11-09-2010, 03:13 PM
So, as many of you know I played Legacy for the first time ever this last weekend. I finished 3rd, which is way beyond what my expectations were, I had a great time, and I highly encourage everyone to start building more Legacy decks - your favorite characters are there, and the games that are played in Legacy are frankly the craziest around.

I do, however, have some thoughts on the format and what I want to see happen to it.

1. No soft/hard locks. Players need to be allowed to draw and play a reasonable number of cards each turn. Similar to Spiral Arrow decks from block 3... Legacy offers up some extremely crazy abilities that end the game without actually ending it, sometimes even on the first turn of the game.

Cards that need to be looked at:

- Fortune Teller. One of these cards effectively reduces your opponent's handsize by 2 from a 'handsize = number of cards from your deck seen each turn' point of view. Readying it, or having 2 out can be game. I don't need to go into the fact that Fortune Teller can be used, and to greater effect than other banned cards (see Military Rank), to recur attacks or cards that should not easily be recurred. I know for a fact that if this card doesn't go or get an errata that soft and hard locks will exist and I don't believe this is good for the format.

- You Will Not (no really, you just won't) Escape. It isn't just an errata that this card needs. I'm dead serious, this card plus some normal luck conditions ends turns and from there games. Playing attacks on difficulty +1 or greater should not be a requirement on the first turn of the game. Checking poorly (and therefore deck construction or self imposed issues) should be the only way to get hosed on the first turn of the game. Having to be able to mulligan into a low difficulty attack and 2+ foundations to remotely keep up with your opponent is, not only impossible for a 6hs or less character, but it is the biggest Negative Play Experience you can encounter. This card needs to be banned from Legacy or games will always be top deck crapshoots. Its bad enough needing to mulligan into Tag Along because there are flat out broken characters in Legacy, it is worse needing to mulligan into cards to defend against an action card

- Anti K and other similar cards. Although not as bad, this Forethoughtish card can pose serious problems and can certainly be used to lock players out of playing cards. I know that it can be used in combination with recurral and lock down responses (manifest/megalo/etc.) to cause more damage to a players turn. I don't think this card in isolation is a problem, I do think it is a problem in multiples, when recurred, and when combined with other effects that hinder the ability to pass checks (commital or otherwise).

... tbc

dutpotd
11-09-2010, 03:14 PM
2. Board 'Resets'. Players need to be able to play the short and long game. Some decks are combo based, and they can't mount an offense without cards in their staging area. I'm not against the Reset mechanic in general, I am against it happening every turn or often, never allowing a player to put together what they want to accomplish with their deck - which is, usually, to pass attacks, more than one a turn, or those with difficulty above 5...

I'm not going to name every single card, we know we are talking about Start Over, Infiltrating, and Kazuya. Yes, I think the standard format* needs to address this NPE as well before it becomes too much of a problem. Frankly all of these cards need to be errata'd to only be playable 'once per game' - see Kyoshiro for precedence. Well, I think Kazuya needs to remove his character card that is discarded off him from the game, it is the Hunt for Jin and Spinning Demon that really makes playing against him a NPE. Repeatedly starting the game over is not a good thing. Doing it once or a limited number of times in a timely fashion is a really strong and really important ability to have in the game.

* The only reason Kazuya is yet to be a problem is the agressive nature of the standard format, more importantly the ability to deal big and easy damage with limited resources. As more defensive/control cards are introduced into the format they will instantly be dwarfed by the board 'Reset' function, seeing as how they will be played in decks that naturally take turns to set up kills. There needs to be a better limiter on Kazuya, character card recursion is too easy.

3. Certain Characters I don't think it is farfetched or innapropriate to look at some characters and accept that they are just 'not good' for the format, granted they are massive enablers. Alba for one can't be stopped in any way shape or form, same goes for other static ability characters. I've always had an issue with this, and I think certain character static abilities should be errated to be responses that are playable while commited. Same with Yun Seong starting ready, another problematic static ability that is a can of worms for first turn possibilities, not to mention combined with his form. There are other characters out there that are equally as abusive, Akuma, Zi Mei, and others that all house abilities that aren't costed properly, don't commit the source and can be reused innapropriately, etc. I know players are naturally against bans and erratas primarily for the reason that that they think it complicates the game, but I think that most/all Legacy players can be considered competitive enough to reasonably be expected to spend the time to keep up with erratas that make the playing experience better. In an ideal world errated cards are reprinted in a 'LEGACY pack' kind of like Champ cards that would provide new Legacy players easily access to proper version cards and reduce the amount of paper carried around by tourney organizers.

4. Readying Cards and Repeatable Abilities. I'm not sure, but I honestly think the game would be better if some added rules were plopped on to Legacy or all formats for that matter. There are infinite combos, (for the same reason players don't want to play extended - Victor - Air Force Loop...), there are abilities that aren't well costed and when used more than once in a turn are devastating, and there are cards that are costed semi-properly but can be readied more than once a turn causing some serious problems. Players should not need Pull the Tides, there should be a simple rule saying a given ability cannot be played more than 8 times in a turn (that is a playset readied once). I feel 8 times is still quite a lot, and would even make Standard more bearable, I'm looking at your 'The Man Behind the Mask'. I know some players may be strongly opposed to this, but there is a reason your favorite fighters have infinites worked out of them in new releases, they are no fun for the player being hit by them.

5. Cards that just don't do what they are supposed to. There are a few cards in Legacy that have not been addressed that should be because they are just flat out poorly designed/worded/executed. Harrier Bee is a good example of this, so is The Curse Broken. In the former case, it is a case of a reusable ability that is frankly too strong, and wasn't meant to be costless. In the latter we have a card that is also missing some text about the opponent cancelling your ability, I mean, who breaks a curse imposed by themselves? I'm pretty sure a 'curse' is an external thing, i.e. you can't stop yourself from doing something and then say you are cursed by not being able to do what you stopped yourself from doing. There are other cards that are played out in ways that weren't intended, I think we owe it to ourselves if we want to enjoy a game of Legacy to care for and update cards so that things make sense and aren't abused.

Anyways, thank you to anyone that has read my combined posts on Legacy, and the 5 things I see as problems with the format. I'm not an expert so don't jump to conclusions and hate on me, I just think we should discuss these things and arrive at conclusions as a group, granted this is the perfect opportunity to do so (with Jason behind the helm as a benevolent owner, one that cares about formats other than just standard where the money may be or is).

- dut

KodiakZero
11-09-2010, 03:20 PM
JascoGames is looking into the Legacy format. There are worse cards out there than the ones you listed (Besides You Will Not Escape, that card needs to be thrown into the stockades).

dutpotd
11-09-2010, 04:11 PM
JascoGames is looking into the Legacy format. There are worse cards out there than the ones you listed (Besides You Will Not Escape, that card needs to be thrown into the stockades).

Yeah, I know Jasco et. al. are looking into it. I just suggest with this thread that we help out as players steer the game in a direction that we want to play it in. Making decisions with complete information is usually better than a far-removed declaration of what will happen or what will be imposed on others.

I'm not talking about 'cards' per se, I want to discuss the issues as I see them. I think having an overarching direction as to 'what types of things need to be avoided' is better than simply listing cards and changes. I listed 5 issues and gave some card examples that contribute to, or exemplify, them.

But, since you are saying you know of some 'cards' that are worse than my examples, please list them here for us so that we can see if they fit into the 5 issues I have identified or if there are other issues that need to be discussed as well.

Also, your Signature "You are an original player until you do well. Then you soon find out you are actually playing meta like everyone else." is just plain misleading, originality does not need to be held at a contrast from 'doing well'. But it is right in saying that no one is above the meta, we all play in it together and that is what makes things interesting :)

- dut

B-Rad
11-09-2010, 08:45 PM
As much as I loathe and despise YWNE, it in a less powerful form NEEDS to be in the Legacy format, otherwise we'll have garbage like the Legacy finals going on where there'll be nothing but grey. A simple errata of "attempt to play an attack" could defenatly help.

Alba is powerful yes, but again with the YWNE thing being potentially fixed, he's not as crazy as say, Yun Seung... But then again for whatever reasons YS has survived the ban stick for so long.

HypeMan!
11-09-2010, 08:55 PM
We need a You May Escape, You Probably Won't, But There is Still a Possibility That You Could

KodiakZero
11-09-2010, 09:54 PM
Yeah, I know Jasco et. al. are looking into it. I just suggest with this thread that we help out as players steer the game in a direction that we want to play it in. Making decisions with complete information is usually better than a far-removed declaration of what will happen or what will be imposed on others.

I'm not talking about 'cards' per se, I want to discuss the issues as I see them. I think having an overarching direction as to 'what types of things need to be avoided' is better than simply listing cards and changes. I listed 5 issues and gave some card examples that contribute to, or exemplify, them.

But, since you are saying you know of some 'cards' that are worse than my examples, please list them here for us so that we can see if they fit into the 5 issues I have identified or if there are other issues that need to be discussed as well.

Also, your Signature "You are an original player until you do well. Then you soon find out you are actually playing meta like everyone else." is just plain misleading, originality does not need to be held at a contrast from 'doing well'. But it is right in saying that no one is above the meta, we all play in it together and that is what makes things interesting :)

- dut

It doesn't apply to UFS lol, i just like that quote. If you've ever played YuGiOh ud know what i mean....

KodiakZero
11-09-2010, 09:55 PM
We need a You May Escape, You Probably Won't, But There is Still a Possibility That You Could

That made me lul

Grizzlegrom
11-09-2010, 10:43 PM
We need a You May Escape, You Probably Won't, But There is Still a Possibility That You Could

I have suggested that if that card does stick around it should have happy holidays rfg text and only playable if you have less foundations than your opponent

Also perhaps releasing cards that are not standard legal fixes of broke legacy cards that need to be there but not as dumb, either in legacy tourney kits or in stuff like champ packs

dutpotd
11-09-2010, 11:44 PM
I have suggested that if that card does stick around it should have happy holidays rfg text and only playable if you have less foundations than your opponent

Also perhaps releasing cards that are not standard legal fixes of broke legacy cards that need to be there but not as dumb, either in legacy tourney kits or in stuff like champ packs

Yeah, all of these are great ideas. And yes, I understand Legacy is just that - broken fun as hell jank. I just think we can make it even funner with a few tweaks :)

- dut

tannerface
11-10-2010, 12:35 PM
But I like hard locks.

JinKazama
11-10-2010, 12:41 PM
I like board re seters

dutpotd
11-10-2010, 12:55 PM
But I like hard locks.

But are they good for the game? And should they be available turn 2/3 before mass setup? Hard locks that are 'hard' to establish and can't be established without like 4 combo pieces aren't the end of the world.


I like board re seters

I do too, but easily repeated use of them completely ignore the main fun aspect of the game, the way 'most' characters win the game, which is build and attack more than once in a turn and with an attack that has a higher than 4-5 difficulty... Not being able to build, and therefore not being able to attack is basically the equivalent of a hard lock on the opponent and is a Negative Play Experience.

- dut

PaulBittner
11-10-2010, 01:10 PM
Personally, I can't stand legacy. Way too much going on. Some people embrace the brokeness, I avoid it. Currently I'm very indifferent about Legacy right now, and a lot would have to happen for me to be interested in it again - starting with the suggestions Dut is making.

What's sad is that, Legacy in theory could be a lot of fun, but it would take a lot of work/trials to execute properly and in particular a lot of banned cards. There are literally hundreds of cards that I would love playing with again, but a couple dozen offenders ruins the format in my eyes and makes it not worth it.

dutpotd
11-10-2010, 01:16 PM
There are literally hundreds of cards that I would love playing with again, but a couple dozen offenders ruins the format in my eyes and makes it not worth it.

Yeah, this is how I feel and why it might be worth the time to weed out and fix/remove the few dozen in favor of the few hundred. We worry about not having 'new' licenses, but the reality is we have all of these cards from licenses that we love but that we just don't play because the format they are available in is broken. It seems to me putting some time and effort into saving our past licenses by making Legacy fun/balanced again is a worthwhile time investment.

I'm just trying to lay down my thoughts on the 5 issues I see with the format, if people agree that these issues are what make legacy bad then those issues extend to particular cards that need to be addressed. From there the format could be great and fun for more players!

- dut

PaulBittner
11-10-2010, 01:26 PM
If in the end players decided to overhaul legacy, I believe the best way to do so might be to create a 'Legacy Committee' of no more than 5-7 players to go through the cards and determine how best to balance the set. After the initial changes are made, players from the community, etc could submit detailed suggestions on a why a card should or shouldn't be included, etc to the committee. Changes and revisions could be made and reviewed every 3 months or so. This would help to keep Legacy as playable as possible, as new cards are introduced into the game.

A similar idea could be used for extended.

dutpotd
11-10-2010, 01:37 PM
If in the end players decided to overhaul legacy, I believe the best way to do so might be to create a 'Legacy Committee' of no more than 5-7 players to go through the cards and determine how best to balance the set. After the initial changes are made, players from the community, etc could submit detailed suggestions on a why a card should or shouldn't be included, etc to the committee. Changes and revisions could be made and reviewed every 3 months or so. This would help to keep Legacy as playable as possible, as new cards are introduced into the game.

A similar idea could be used for extended.

I like this idea too. I don't think it is 'as' big of a deal to overhaul either of these formats when you compare it to changes made to standard, and to have revisions perpetually as results and games are actually played in the format is a great target to keep things fresh and to address problems.

If the players together with Jason and Co could form a committee of sorts to deal with the past it would take the burden of time/effort/money off the Company which should probably primarily focus on the 'future', where sales are, and where new players can be attracted.

I don't think there is a big 'rush' to do this, but like most things, the sooner the better for practice/building purposes.

Here's to 3 viable formats that all have good participation numbers and are competitive, balanced, and fun to play in!

Also, we need more comments on the issues I see with the format - do people agree the locks/resets/characters/readying(free reusable abilities)/wording are the problem areas? Are there any other?

- dut

Cass
11-10-2010, 01:45 PM
Personally, I can't stand legacy. Way too much going on. Some people embrace the brokeness, I avoid it. Currently I'm very indifferent about Legacy right now, and a lot would have to happen for me to be interested in it again - starting with the suggestions Dut is making.

What's sad is that, Legacy in theory could be a lot of fun, but it would take a lot of work/trials to execute properly and in particular a lot of banned cards. There are literally hundreds of cards that I would love playing with again, but a couple dozen offenders ruins the format in my eyes and makes it not worth it.

Same for me. I can't stand legacy, it's way too broken... If you ban a card, suddently 3 others become broken due to the disapearance of the first banned one... banning power cards would only lead to more banning and more banning again...

I've watched some in my playgroup play legacy only to realize i'm not interested, but really not.

ScottGaines
11-12-2010, 10:56 AM
me, krik polka, drew and others are working on this right now for legacy. i'm hoping to submit a list to jasco within two weeks!!

dutpotd
11-12-2010, 12:26 PM
me, krik polka, drew and others are working on this right now for legacy. i'm hoping to submit a list to jasco within two weeks!!

Good to hear, I had presumed as much and just wanted to toss in my thoughts from my first experience. Thank you to you and everyone else for their efforts, I look forward to playing Legacy again and the more people it can appeal to, and fun it can provide, the better!

- dut

ScottGaines
11-13-2010, 08:14 AM
yeah, alot of the broken crap will go.

I want the followign characters banned: Ibuki with +3 to checks, old promo ukyo, starter akuma, old promo ys and maybe a few others like alba/tira etc.

failed2k
11-13-2010, 01:25 PM
Die You will Not Escape, Die.

B-Rad
11-13-2010, 03:00 PM
yeah, alot of the broken crap will go.

I want the followign characters banned: Ibuki with +3 to checks, old promo ukyo, starter akuma, old promo ys and maybe a few others like alba/tira etc.

Alba in and of himself isn't that bad. It's YWNE, LCK, and Fortune Teller that make him just insane.

SirShajir
11-13-2010, 05:40 PM
Fortune teller and YWNE are pretty brutal

tannerface
11-13-2010, 06:23 PM
FOR THE LOVE OF GOD DO NOT GET RID OF ALBA!! I will cry and have no reason to ever play legacy. Aside from about 3 other characters. But for real I love alba.

ScottGaines
11-15-2010, 06:16 AM
Alba in and of himself isn't that bad. It's YWNE, LCK, and Fortune Teller that make him just insane.

clearly he doesn't break any of the following either:

Experienced combatant, high plasma beam, leaping commando kick, k. reppa....basically any good order attack on their turn is TOO MUCH.

when a guy makes that many cards too good, he is clearly too good :)

dutpotd
11-15-2010, 10:35 AM
when a guy makes that many cards too good, he is clearly too good :)

Well, he enables some of the stupidest stuff ever. BUT, my biggest problem with his has always been that his ability (for lack of a better term) cannot be prevented/negated or adequately played around without deck designing expecting to play against him which isn't practical, and even then you are just keeping up.

Take off his static and I'd be happy I suppose, turn it into an R or something (or well ready/commited) and at least most decks will have a way to deal with him.

- dut