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JohnHag
06-24-2010, 11:14 AM
Hello everyone,

As we are looking over our promotional card collection, we realized that we have a bit of a problem. As some of you have seen our new list of banned cards, part of the thought process behind some of the cards was the availability. I know for some of you it was not a problem, but cards like James Hata, Stand Off, and Path of the Master would be difficult for newer players to acquire, if possible at all in some instances.

Aside from the champion and team cards, Paid to Protect is the hardest card to acquire. Looking at our stock, compared to the rest of the promotional cards, we realize that it is going to be a card that will be fairly impossible to acquire at this point. Our stock of the card is drastically low, so I can only imagine how hard it is to find for the average player. Chances are that if you do not have it now, it will be a situation that will likely not change.

With that in mind, I would like you all to participate in the poll to let us know your thoughts on the card. We realize how powerful the card is and we are trying to make the best decision possible on how to approach the situation. Any comments and suggestions would be welcomed and appreciated. Also, please give us your thoughts about how your player base responds to the card and any comments they might have on the availability.

SMazzurco
06-24-2010, 11:39 AM
P2P is the only card that can bring a rediculously fast attack to blockable levels.

There are a LOT more speed pumps in the format than speed reduction.

The format is already aggro-centric atm as it is, if P2P was gone this game would get silly IMO.

I mean, i am a control player, and i have 2 decks currently that are trying to kill T2, and one tries to kill T1 depending on the hand.

Lots of cards give reusable speed pumps (Amy, her support, drossel, etc) and P2P requires a commit.

If P2P is hard to aquire maybe a "new" promo with very similar stats needs to be introduced....

There are lots of cards that get around P2P (pommel, rasho's support, memories that stain can be sure it is only used once, etc).

I am very against the banning of standoff, even if i am not vocal about it. Standoff was balanced. The game has a LOT more boosts now than reduction already. Standoff was a card where commiting 2 foundations might of given +4 damage, but fire already has plenty of cards where you commit one foundation for +2dmg (and sometimes a speed boost as well). People just complained because they didn't have it, that does NOT mean the card is out of balance.

My $.02, would say more but have to get some work done

ShadowDragon
06-24-2010, 11:39 AM
The card is definitely scarce in my area... I think there should be a reprint of it honestly. Under a different liscence of course, but same text and much better availability. Though I can't really think of anything in the ShadoWar universe yet that would fit 'Paid to Protect'... so if it is reprinted in some form then the promo version should probably be banned, but only WHEN the new one is released so that the few people who worked hard to get theirs can still use them.

On a side note, people seeking the Wonderworld assets can talk to failed2k or drewkasa since they're both on both of the Wonderworld assets~ Not sure about those on the latest UK team asset though

Sato Arashi
06-24-2010, 11:43 AM
If you really think about it, it's the only card that can get around Hilde's (this is a Hilde player speaking btw) ability for most characters besides Rasho. So essentially it's a crucial card.

It is however, with flaws like SMazzurco stated. There are cards that will effectively take P2P on its knees so in anycase it isn't really a ridiculous card to be considered powerful. Just kind of sucks that it became limited, I should've grabbed one back then when I could.

RockStar
06-24-2010, 11:55 AM
I have to agree with Smazzurco...on all his points about this card, and even Stand Off!

Paid To Protect gives 3 symbols protection against decks that boost speed to unblockable ratings. I think removing it from play via the Ban-Hammer, or the Nerf Stick, would be a detriment to this game. The Pro Play, imo, would be to release a card or two in the next Set that actually gives other symbols access to speed redux abilities.

Link
06-24-2010, 01:18 PM
P2P is a very good card that is very necessary in this format, Def could use a reprint without the license but dont ban it cuz a card shouldnt be banned because of availability.

JohnHag
06-24-2010, 01:22 PM
Just a reminder, we are not looking to ban the card, we are merely looking for opinions on its unique situation.

TripsEX
06-24-2010, 01:53 PM
I think the card is fine, but the fact that it's so damn scare is what really makes it crazy good. Reprint it.

RockStar
06-24-2010, 02:15 PM
...this card needs a reprint, fo sho!

SMazzurco
06-24-2010, 02:26 PM
well, is it THAT unique? I mean in standard it is but um...what was that terry bogard card that did the same thing? From Flames of Fame i believe

btw, the damage negation part is minor, its ALL about the speed reduction that makes p2p what it is.

edit: american made

Tagrineth
06-24-2010, 03:43 PM
SMazzurco: The problem with Stand-Off is more the constant abusable -4 rather than the reusable +4.

It lets you overextend your foundation spam and still retain a spammable defense, because even if they cancel the -4, you just stun:2ed them on their own attack, slowing their turn down.

Bloodrunstrue
06-25-2010, 03:12 AM
The card is definitely scarce in my area... I think there should be a reprint of it honestly. Under a different liscence of course, but same text and much better availability. Though I can't really think of anything in the ShadoWar universe yet that would fit 'Paid to Protect'... so if it is reprinted in some form then the promo version should probably be banned, but only WHEN the new one is released so that the few people who worked hard to get theirs can still use them.

On a side note, people seeking the Wonderworld assets can talk to failed2k or drewkasa since they're both on both of the Wonderworld assets~ Not sure about those on the latest UK team asset though

In regards to the latest UK Asset, yeah i'm afraid you're probably out of luck.
All of the guys who are present on the asset no longer play the game, your only hope I think is to contact Patriot Games and even then there's shiping etc. :/

Which makes me think that perhaps we should make Patriot games a UK event only card? LOL

Hmmm, in regards to our playerbase and availability of P2P, I have only 1 copy, Nic (RunnerB3an) has 2 copies and nobody else has any, also we had trade far more than we would have liked for them :/

The poll resuslts look interesting after my vote, as it stands we are tied between Regardless of availabilty the card is fine and a card of that power level shouldn't be so hard to come by. I believe that P2P isn't overpowered at all, in fact the card is much needed in the game with mass speed pumps for free, however, it's scarcity isn't doing any favours.

My verdict: Reprint the card with a similar name and apply the same errata which applies to Quick elbow/Jab, although they are different cards they count as having the same name so no more than four copies per deck. This allows newer players and those who didn't manage to acquire them at the time the opportunity to get some P2P's as opposed to adding another card to an extensive banned-list _

Thanks
Bloodrunstrue

failed2k
06-25-2010, 11:36 AM
I was behind the banning of paid to protect(due mainly to the symbols/power level combination on it, Fire has absolutely no reason to be on that card at all) and to me this is just another reason the card should be removed from the format entirely.

I'm not against a reprint of the card, WITHOUT FIRE. I think the speed reduction is a fine ability for the symbols that should have it, Fire is not one of those symbols.

Also, someone mentioned stand-off being perfectly balanced, I'm inclined to think that is a really really crazy thing to say. In the decks where Stand off was used to it's full potential, it grinded the game to a halt, and could single-handedly take decks completely out of games. Admittedly in some decks it was a very solid but average card, but that's not the scenario that made the card a problem, the decks that REALLY had the tools and the strategy to use the card in a crippling way were the problem.

ShadowDragon
06-25-2010, 11:40 AM
Oh I have my set of Patriot Games already, I made sure to get 4 at GenCon last year, but that sucks to hear that the people on it no longer play...

As for P2P, I hope its effects are reprinted in some form in the next set. The speed reset is so vital against quite a few decks in the current format.

Yoko Charming Fox
06-25-2010, 12:37 PM
P2P is a very good foundation with hurts agro in an agro centered meta. Everyone should have accesse to this cards to help balance out standard. The card needs to be reprinted in a different set or as another promo and sent out in price support.

Bloodrunstrue
06-25-2010, 01:48 PM
P2P is a very good foundation with hurts agro in an agro centered meta. Everyone should have accesse to this cards to help balance out standard. The card needs to be reprinted in a different set or as another promo and sent out in price support.

Quoted.For.Truth.

B-Rad
06-25-2010, 05:19 PM
... WITHOUT FIRE. I think the speed reduction is a fine ability for the symbols that should have it, Fire is not one of those symbols.



This is key. Fire already has TOO much crap running around, it really doesn't need any more reduction. Anyways, P2p needs to be desperatly reprinted or we could have another BRT on our hands, depending on how speed centric aggro decks are gonna become. To the best of my knowledge the Shwa playgroup has 7-8, but they're in two decks cause they're the players in specific that have them.

Hatman
06-25-2010, 06:29 PM
I think in total, Team Phail has 7-8 due to heavy online purchases once FFG dropped the game.

Sadly, I agree with many saying that :

a) Fire shouldn't have been on the card.
b) It shouldn't have been that limited in the first place, considering how necessary it can be in some decks (My non-PotM King cannot survive without it)

However, I recognize that the ability is needed, so getting rid of it would cause more harm than good, as well, as the fact that Standard is a mess mostly because of Fire's omnipresence on cards. The second problem will be solved once more cards hit Standard.

RockStar
06-25-2010, 07:29 PM
I think in total, Team Phail has 7-8 due to heavy online purchases once FFG dropped the game.

The second problem will be solved once more cards hit Standard.

This.

Please keep in mind that Standard is really an incomplete format at the moment. Fire is the poster-child for current Standard because it was given a considerable amount of weapons to combat just how much Control (jank) was present at the time. Early rotation has certainly swung the balance of power toward Aggro, but i'm certain that pendulum will swing back toward center with the new release.

And, yea, i agree. P2P needs to be in this format, and should either be re-released or reprinted as a newer card in the upcoming Set. My vote is for the latter so that 3 other symbols would have a chance to use speed redux.

ATLDrew
06-26-2010, 11:57 AM
We somehow managed to come up with a playset, but a staple promo should not be that rare.

Im all for reprinting it in Octrober... with Ryu on it... please?

Tader_Salad
06-26-2010, 02:12 PM
Keep P2P in the format and do a reprint with the green/beginners luck policy. There's no need to take fire off of it, let Jasco balance the ENTIRE format and even symbols out like he most likely intends to.

JinKazama
06-27-2010, 11:09 AM
Why reprint it? Why not just create a similar card with different symbols? Sisters of battle or whatever its called is uncommon, and its speed reduction is just as good. Although they both have fire thats neither here nor there.

ShadowDragon
06-27-2010, 12:01 PM
The problem with Sisters is that it's not as useful. You can't use it on every single different attack like you can with P2P... However I would like to see a few new cards with P2P's text but without Fire. Fire's an aggressive symbol, it shouldn't have much for Damage or Speed redux in the 1st place.

Target X
06-28-2010, 12:07 PM
Heres the thing with P2P,

I completely agree that a card like paid to protect is nessessary in the game and it should be made available to a much wider range of players so that not only the older players can get their hands on it.

Now the keyword here, and I'm gonna get a lot of flames over this, LIKE paid to protect, not exactly like it. As it is right now, P2P is far too powerful.
Here's why:

Looking a the react, it's basically a ''no'' card. No matter how many foundations you commit or shennannigans you pull off, I'm just one react away from ruining your day. Someone mentioned in an earlier post that without it, Hilde would run rampant and be unstoppable ( Not so much now with the banning of Stand off ) but the other side of the coin is that with P2P in the meta, no speed buff deck out there really stands a chance. How is that any better? Combine it with its damage reduction enhence and we have another archetype killer, joining the ranks of Holding grounds, healer and absurd strenght.

There are ways to commit P2P ( Pummel smash is a great exemple ) but again they aren't available in all symbols that benefit from speed boost, life is a pretty good exemple of that.

In short, a speed nerfing card is needed, but not something as imbalenced and unnobtainable as P2P.

Judas225
06-28-2010, 02:20 PM
P2P only kills a single attack per copy and it's not a surprise since it has to be on the field to be used. You can plan around it, even come up with ways to make your opponent use it before they want to, because you can see it coming. So long as you don't put all your eggs in one basket it's not that big a deal as you can still bluff and manipulate your way through it.

Life can blank the card with Memories of a Nightmare and No Forgiveness, the minimum 1 means Ka Technique can blank it as well and I'm sure there's several other tools around it that I'm not thinking of right now.

That said, the card is nearly impossible to find now. My group got lucky (we're small) and we have MAYBE two decks worth of P2P, but I doubt we'd be able to find much more. It's a card that not very many people are willing to trade away.

Eithinis
06-28-2010, 02:51 PM
I think we have like 3 playsets in our group, and may be alone on that. Even so, having a playset myself, I think it definitely needs a reprint, just change the title, give it a name like Hired Protection, and that's that.

rAn
06-28-2010, 06:24 PM
I think we have like 3 playsets in our group, and may be alone on that. Even so, having a playset myself, I think it definitely needs a reprint, just change the title, give it a name like Hired Protection, and that's that.

Could they not just reprint it with the same name/ alternate art? Just tag a different set on it and make it a shadowar card. If they reprint and change the name they'll have to ban the old copy so people don't have 8 copies of it in their decks.

Eithinis
06-28-2010, 09:12 PM
Could they not just reprint it with the same name/ alternate art? Just tag a different set on it and make it a shadowar card. If they reprint and change the name they'll have to ban the old copy so people don't have 8 copies of it in their decks.

See: Green and Beginner's Luck

JohnHag
06-29-2010, 01:44 PM
Hey everyone,

Thank you for all of your feedback, and for your participation in the poll. Unfortunately, it is not as simple as just reprinting the card itself, but we have a way to help remedy the problem. It is certainly not a quick fix, but we understand the way you all feel about the card and its availability. Ultimately, our goal is to never place a card in the format that will be so difficult to acquire, especially one that is so crucial to have in the environment.

We are not going to ban the card, but we are working hard to ensure that your concerns are met. I wish we could make it more available and help this problem right now, but it is not a realistic possibility. There are simply not enough cards to go around, and we are sorry that it worked out like that. This issue is being resolved though, we just ask you all to bare with us.

In order to help circulate the cards, we raided our own personal collections and placed them on the website for sale. Knowing how difficult they are to acquire, we just do not feel comfortable owning the cards when most of you all do not have that opportunity. So, I am no longer going to be able to stop your speed craziness if I see any of you at a tournament. :P

Kidding aside, I want you all to know that your opinion matters and we were very serious in asking for your help on this matter. Thank you all again and have a nice day. =)