PDA

View Full Version : Piercing Howl Vs. Brilliant Technician



SMazzurco
02-06-2011, 10:42 AM
I attack with piercing Howl.

Opponent enhances with Brilliant Technician.

Attack deals damage.
Once it goes to my momentum, does it still get removed from the game?

Shinguyi
02-06-2011, 10:52 AM
I think it fizzles since Brilliant Tactician would have removed the attack while it was still an attack, and the attack would be in the "imaginary" momentum zone by the time Brilliant Tactician kicks in since Brilliant Tactician looks for "this attack" when its no longer in the Card Pool.

Guess Tagrineth will have to answer this one. ^^;

SMazzurco
02-06-2011, 11:10 AM
thats what i thought but would like an official

Tagrineth
02-06-2011, 11:33 AM
Since momentum is an in-play zone, and Howl goes to your momentum faceup, the game will remember effects on Howl even though it went to your momentum. Since Tactician doesn't specify to remove it from the card pool or anything like that... it will be RFGed.

SMazzurco
02-06-2011, 11:39 AM
Since momentum is an in-play zone, and Howl goes to your momentum faceup, the game will remember effects on Howl even though it went to your momentum. Since Tactician doesn't specify to remove it from the card pool or anything like that... it will be RFGed.

If it went face down, would it be any different then?

Tagrineth
02-06-2011, 05:59 PM
If it went face down, would it be any different then?

Yes. The card going facedown would effectively end any effects on the card (unless otherwise specified by an effect) because the game would "forget" the target of the effect.

sunwentai
05-18-2012, 10:49 AM
OMG! What if the card did say to "remove it from the card pool and then add it to your momentum", would that have changed anything?

Please excuse me for being shocked, but shouldn't all cards that are changing zones be considered different cards for all intents and purposes, just to make it more simple and intuitive? How can I petition for this ruling to be reviewed, especially since there's sadly nothing about any of this in the actual rules document :( ?

Nubian God
05-18-2012, 11:39 AM
The only way that cards could dodge Brilliant Tactician would be for them to be relocated to a private game zone (your hand, deck, or face-down in the momentum).

If anything, it would be LESS simple and intuitive if it was considered a different card while remaining known to both players and the game state throughout the transition.

sunwentai
05-18-2012, 12:05 PM
I disagree. I believe it's much more simple to and intuitive if all cards, whether they are going to a in-play zone or not, whether they are face down or not, be considered a different card. As it is, it's much more complex as you have to consider the game zone the card was in, the game zone the card is going to and whether or not the card turns face up or face down while changing zones.

The only fathomably more complex case being this very one with Piercing Howl and Brilliant Tactician, in which case the player who played PH would likely choose to have the card go to momentum instead of letting it be removed from the game, and therefore preventing it from being removed from the game altogether.

Shinguyi
05-18-2012, 12:14 PM
I disagree. I believe it's much more simple to and intuitive if all cards, whether they are going to a in-play zone or not, whether they are face down or not, be considered a different card. As it is, it's much more complex as you have to consider the game zone the card was in, the game zone the card is going to and whether or not the card turns face up or face down while changing zones.

The only fathomably more complex case being this very one with Piercing Howl and Brilliant Tactician, in which case the player who played PH would likely choose to have the card go to momentum instead of letting it be removed from the game, and therefore preventing it from being removed from the game altogether.

Piercing Howl was in an In-Game Zone and went to another In-Game Zone, so the game never loses memory of the card (In case you wonder, Staging Area, Card Pool and Momentum are In-Game Zones). Its the same in other card games if a card does something when its in an in-game zone and something happens within the in-game zone, no matter the location. The only way to really believe its a different card is to move to out-of-game zone, in which it becomes private to semi-private.

sunwentai
05-18-2012, 03:57 PM
Shinguyi, that's besides the point. I'm not looking for a clarification of the ruling, I'm looking to challenge it.

Cetonis
05-18-2012, 04:25 PM
Incidentally, can I get a refresher on the ordering of floating effects resolving? Let's say I play PH, they use BT, but then I turn my Ancient Gate sideways so that the PH turns face down upon dealing damage. Do all my statics happen first - i.e. can I have PH go to momentum, then turn face down and force BT to fizzle - or do they alternate, forcing me to either turn PH down or have it go to the momentum only to be RFG'd ?

Tagrineth
05-18-2012, 08:52 PM
Incidentally, can I get a refresher on the ordering of floating effects resolving? Let's say I play PH, they use BT, but then I turn my Ancient Gate sideways so that the PH turns face down upon dealing damage. Do all my statics happen first - i.e. can I have PH go to momentum, then turn face down and force BT to fizzle - or do they alternate, forcing me to either turn PH down or have it go to the momentum only to be RFG'd ?

From what I recall, not that this has been a huge issue very often, but it's all turn player's effects followed by all off-turn player's effects, in the order of the player's choosing.

Challenge denied, by the way. Face-up in-play memory has always been relevant to this game. IIRC there were some old cards that this mattered with too.

NJBrock22
05-18-2012, 09:39 PM
also to add to what Chris said about challenge denied; the ONLY way you can change a ruling is to bring it up to Dave or Jason and they will discuss it, then get back to you w/n reasonable time(see at most a month) with a decision, but yeah as stated, In Game Zone to In Game zone, card stays revealed, nothing to see here, same card, move along.

N.J.

Grizzlegrom
05-19-2012, 08:45 AM
Challenge denied, by the way. Face-up in-play memory has always been relevant to this game. IIRC there were some old cards that this mattered with too.

Since you are the only person who actually posts that is as a "Rules Arbiter" technically the current rules arbiters are: Antigoth, GouHadou, and Korrin. I think your name needs to be up there lol :p

sunwentai
05-19-2012, 06:15 PM
Well I did bring it up, I'm just crushingly disappointed with such a rude, disdainful reply, especially coming from someone so respected as Tag whom I've seen as rules arbiter for years. Just comes to show how a person can reveal his true self given the time. :(

Shinguyi
05-19-2012, 09:13 PM
Well I did bring it up, I'm just crushingly disappointed with such a rude, disdainful reply, especially coming from someone so respected as Tag whom I've seen as rules arbiter for years. Just comes to show how a person can reveal his true self given the time. :(

Well, this type of question has been asked before with other instances of cards and no offense, but you are dead set on trying to change how the rules work. ^^;

If you wish to keep challenge, it may be best to send it to the top (but most likely you'll receive the same answer although maybe not as harsh as a "denied").

NJBrock22
05-20-2012, 12:11 AM
Since you are the only person who actually posts that is as a "Rules Arbiter" technically the current rules arbiters are: Antigoth, GouHadou, and Korrin. I think your name needs to be up there lol :p

told jason to officially promote him MONTHS ago, and somehow he kept getting distracted... maybe someone should remind him *hint* *hint*...

and sunwentai... enough, you've contacted jason, no name calling, no bashing, just ENOUGH, i'ma get jason or dave to close this thread before more hate starts to spill out.

N.J.

Tagrineth
05-21-2012, 04:49 AM
Well I did bring it up, I'm just crushingly disappointed with such a rude, disdainful reply, especially coming from someone so respected as Tag whom I've seen as rules arbiter for years. Just comes to show how a person can reveal his true self given the time. :(

I come off more harsh than I mean to most of the time. It's sorta the reason my name was removed from the FFG arbiters list some time ago which was C&P'd to the description of this board.

There's a good and valid reason for it which I'd rather not state on a public forum. It's not something I can really change or fix, and I really have no problem being the unofficial-official rules guy as a result.

My apologies.

Birch
05-21-2012, 08:34 AM
I'm with the guy who disagrees. If momentum is an in play zone, then why wouldn't it check regardless if the momentum if face up or not? Momentum is either public knowledge or it isn't. It can't be selective because that is inconsistent and inconsistency arent good for any game.

I'm not saying momentum should be public knowledge though, what I mean is that it is silly that it looks just because the card is face up. A change in the game zone should nullify the BT effect.

Nubian God
05-21-2012, 09:38 AM
I'm with the guy who disagrees. If momentum is an in play zone, then why wouldn't it check regardless if the momentum if face up or not? Momentum is either public knowledge or it isn't. It can't be selective because that is inconsistent and inconsistency arent good for any game.


Think of it as window blinds. Ideally, your house affairs are private and unknown to the rest of the world up until you decide to open those blinds. Same with momentum; the second you flip a card in the momentum or transfer a card there face up, it loses all rights to be private knowledge.

The game state has always had a literal perspective of face up/face down cards, like a matrix. If a card is face up, it remains known to it as said card until it is 1)flipped face down, 2) added to your hand, or 3) added to your deck. Until one of those three things happen, it remembers what that card is and what unresolved effects it has going for it. What would be inconsistent is to have the game state suffer a stroke and forget about the card just because it entered a traditonally private zone. Open blinds; it can still see yooooooou!

Birch
05-21-2012, 10:59 AM
It still doesn't make sense but sure. I'm saying if it normally wouldn't look there then it shouldnt make a special exception because a card is face-up. This means that effects now check all game zones to resolve. Good to know.

Skys2high
05-21-2012, 01:26 PM
Think of it as window blinds. Ideally, your house affairs are private and unknown to the rest of the world up until you decide to open those blinds. Same with momentum; the second you flip a card in the momentum or transfer a card there face up, it loses all rights to be private knowledge.

The game state has always had a literal perspective of face up/face down cards, like a matrix. If a card is face up, it remains known to it as said card until it is 1)flipped face down, 2) added to your hand, or 3) added to your deck. Until one of those three things happen, it remembers what that card is and what unresolved effects it has going for it. What would be inconsistent is to have the game state suffer a stroke and forget about the card just because it entered a traditonally private zone. Open blinds; it can still see yooooooou!


So that means that if I had my Character Card directly over my momentum, that they would have to ask to check my momentum?

Would it be able to check discard piles as well since they're public knowledge too?

Is there a clock for Brilliant Tactician to resolve in also? Say you somehow magically picked the attack up with a card and you're playing King, you're next move is to reveal your hand as a cost to King's Form Ability, does Brilliant Tactician check again for the same attack in the same way that some cards can Randomly reveal the same card until end of turn? Even though the card shouldn't become hidden again for that effect since it would override the previous effect of the same card if you were to play two. (I forget the name of the attack off-hand)

Nubian God
05-21-2012, 01:51 PM
So that means that if I had my Character Card directly over my momentum, that they would have to ask to check my momentum?

Would it be able to check discard piles as well since they're public knowledge too?

Is there a clock for Brilliant Tactician to resolve in also? Say you somehow magically picked the attack up with a card and you're playing King, you're next move is to reveal your hand as a cost to King's Form Ability, does Brilliant Tactician check again for the same attack in the same way that some cards can Randomly reveal the same card until end of turn? Even though the card shouldn't become hidden again for that effect since it would override the previous effect of the same card if you were to play two. (I forget the name of the attack off-hand)

With Brilliant Tactician, you have to keep in mind the ability, spelled thusly:

E Commit: If this attack deals damage, remove it from the game.

Brilliant Tactician looks at one thing (if it deals damage) and tries to execute the rest of the ability IMMEDIATELY when its condition is met (the attack deals damage). If the owner of the attack manages to hide the card when it dealt damage by flipping it (ex. Tower of Remembrance - Ancient Gate) or adding it to their hand, deck, or momentum (face down), Brilliant Tactician can't find the targeted card anymore, says screw it, and fizzles.

As for your first two questions, yes your opponent may request to review any face up cards in your game area including: discard, card pool, staging area and momentum. I stress face up. Anything that's face down in your area they're only allowed to count (no peeking or reorganizing).

Shinguyi
05-21-2012, 03:04 PM
With Brilliant Tactician, you have to keep in mind the ability, spelled thusly:

E Commit: If this attack deals damage, remove it from the game.

Brilliant Tactician looks at one thing (if it deals damage) and tries to execute the rest of the ability IMMEDIATELY when its condition is met (the attack deals damage). If the owner of the attack manages to hide the card when it dealt damage by flipping it (ex. Tower of Remembrance - Ancient Gate) or adding it to their hand, deck, or momentum (face down), Brilliant Tactician can't find the targeted card anymore, says screw it, and fizzles.

As for your first two questions, yes your opponent may request to review any face up cards in your game area including: discard, card pool, staging area and momentum. I stress face up. Anything that's face down in your area they're only allowed to count (no peeking or reorganizing).

Want to add to Nubian God's comment, be aware that momentum while Face Down is completely private to all players, even to its owner. A player is not allowed to look their face down momentum (so its best you keep track of how you place it), so it becomes even more impossible for Brilliant Tachtitian to remove said card from the game if Face Down.

Another nice way to see it is place a token on the card to signify how Brilliant Tachtitian's "Memory" of the card works. While within the In-Game Zone, wherever the card goes, the token goes with it. If the card turns face down among a lot of other face-down cards, its "impossible" for the game to distinguish what face down cards are, so the token cannot stay on the card.
On the other hand, if a card goes to a different zone (in which it MAY contain other copies of the same one), Brilliant Tachtitian sees more than one copy of the target card and it can't distinguish which one is the one it needs to remove. We as players know which are the cards; the game, as a computer, does not (which is what Nubian God implied by a matrix).

Hopefully these metaphors work in a good way.

Grizzlegrom
05-21-2012, 03:29 PM
How about we just get a final ruling on this by an official rules arbiter or Jason himself to just stop the argument completely or appeal for a rules change or something

Birch
05-21-2012, 07:32 PM
Its not that i dont think it can work, its that why does it even check momentum unless it normally does.