PDA

View Full Version : States of Blank Foundations (again)



Shinguyi
02-06-2011, 08:34 PM
Ok, so we know that when a foundations is blanked it retains its foundation state as long as its moved within game zones, but what of its values?

Let's say that you have a foundation that was blanked via Taki, and I decide to destroy it for Heir to the Storm's first ability, would my attack get +2 damage or +0?

And what of an attack such as Assassin's Strike becoming a blank foundation and destroying it for Heir to the Storm? Would it be +0 or +6?

SMazzurco
02-06-2011, 09:54 PM
0 in both cases,

Shinguyi
02-07-2011, 05:00 AM
I was told otherwise with the case of Taki, that's why I wonder.

NJBrock22
02-07-2011, 06:21 PM
because it was a face down when it went to the discard pile, the #s are not referenced upon that time as it's a foundation until it hits the discard pile(once it touches the discard pile it reverts back to being an attack and the ability is looking for the foundation you destroyed for the ability) hence 0, same can be stated for a foundation that was face down, you destroyed it it flipped face up the game looks for the face down you destroyed, doesn't find it, #'s = 0. Yeah i'm bastadizing the way of looking at it but that's how i'd explain it to a player that can't understand why it doesn't give a huge bonus.

N.J.

Shinguyi
02-07-2011, 06:57 PM
That's how I would rule it, but a fellow player was told by Jason that if Taki blanked one of your foundations and you destroy it with Heir to the Storm, Heir to the Storm looks at the old foundation's difficulty and I found that really, really strange.

NJBrock22
02-07-2011, 09:53 PM
yeah lets leave this for Jason to explain then, if ya want i can get him to look here and give a decision.

N.J.

Tagrineth
02-08-2011, 02:52 AM
Well, originally the concept was that the "card destroyed" was the state it was in when the cost was paid, which was the facedown - and thus completely blank - version of the card.

If Jason wants to work it differently, then so be it, but I'd say to go by the old ruling as above until the Hand of God reaches into this thread for us. ;)

Shinguyi
02-08-2011, 06:16 PM
yeah lets leave this for Jason to explain then, if ya want i can get him to look here and give a decision.

N.J.

If you can that would be ideal. Thanks.

SMazzurco
02-09-2011, 05:26 AM
if this is overruled it would also apply to things like face down Need to Destroy?

Shinguyi
02-09-2011, 09:36 AM
Yeah, which is absurd if you ask me.

SMazzurco
02-09-2011, 09:41 AM
ya i am in the school of "face down foundations have 0 diff/control, no text, art, set, etc"

jason
02-09-2011, 10:14 PM
There is nothing in the ARG about face down foundations that I am aware of, but we will be ruling it like this:

Face down blank foundations will return a 0 or null for all values for the duration that they are face down in the staging area. If the card is removed from the staging area or turned face up, it will have its printed values returned. You may still look at any face down cards in your own staging area as this is private information (Momentum is not in your staging area).

While we are on the topic of face down cards, since there is nothing about multiple copies of attacks being paid for by means other than momentum (such as Rising Typhoon) players may not re-use multiple copies to pay for multiple costs. that means you cannot use Rising Typhoon to grab 2 attacks and use them as multiples, and them use the same cards again for a second Rising Typhoon. These attacks should also be turned face down just as momentum is used to pay for multiple costs.

This should be updated in the new ARG.

-Jason

Trip Se7ens
02-09-2011, 10:28 PM
Noo, Jason just nerfed Rising Typhoon! :( I should have never told him about these questions on the forums! :( My bad players!

SMazzurco
02-10-2011, 06:06 AM
There is nothing in the ARG about face down foundations that I am aware of, but we will be ruling it like this:

Face down blank foundations will return a 0 or null for all values for the duration that they are face down in the staging area. If the card is removed from the staging area or turned face up, it will have its printed values returned. You may still look at any face down cards in your own staging area as this is private information (Momentum is not in your staging area).

While we are on the topic of face down cards, since there is nothing about multiple copies of attacks being paid for by means other than momentum (such as Rising Typhoon) players may not re-use multiple copies to pay for multiple costs. that means you cannot use Rising Typhoon to grab 2 attacks and use them as multiples, and them use the same cards again for a second Rising Typhoon. These attacks should also be turned face down just as momentum is used to pay for multiple costs.

This should be updated in the new ARG.

-Jason


If Need to Destroy, Maniacal Laughter, or Regretful Existance are destroyed while face down, does their static trigger? ("If this foundation is destroyed, ...")

Shinguyi
02-10-2011, 08:26 AM
And does that mean for example, if you turn Assassin's Strike into a Blank Foundation, would cards like Heir to the Storm and Eva look at the attack's Difficulty? Seems insane but will make Eva really good with a ruling like that.

Also, the new ruling makes me think that there will be new means to pay for costs using attacks in your card pool a la Rising Typhoon. But oh well.

Tagrineth
02-11-2011, 02:52 AM
If Need to Destroy, Maniacal Laughter, or Regretful Existance are destroyed while face down, does their static trigger? ("If this foundation is destroyed, ...")

No, because "this foundation" wasn't the identification of the card when it was destroyed. A facedown blank foundation was destroyed. The foundation enters the discard pile and the "when destroyed" effect has no trigger.


And does that mean for example, if you turn Assassin's Strike into a Blank Foundation, would cards like Heir to the Storm and Eva look at the attack's Difficulty? Seems insane but will make Eva really good with a ruling like that.

No. As Jason himself said, any values will come back as 0s from facedown blank foundations.

Shinguyi
02-11-2011, 06:40 AM
Then I'm a bit lost with the ruling... what does he mean by this?

Face down blank foundations will return a 0 or null for all values for the duration that they are face down in the staging area. If the card is removed from the staging area or turned face up, it will have its printed values returned.

SMazzurco
02-11-2011, 06:49 AM
ya i misunderstood as well. i thought jason said eva/heir would see the actual printed difficulty.

Cause they would be destroyed for the cost, and when the effect resolves it would see them in the discard pile and see the actual printed value.

jason
02-11-2011, 08:47 AM
No I was merely saying, that after they are destroyed and added to the discard pile, they will go back to normal. They are no longer blank foundations (After) they are destroyed. While in the staging area, and for the duration of effects that would destroy a foundation, they are blank foundation with 0's for all stats.

SMazzurco
02-11-2011, 08:57 AM
ok i am fully with you then. Yeah once they hit the discard pile i always thought any effect that varied the state of the foundations was canceled. Blanking via rashotep, turning upside down, etc.

+7 damage for destroying ass.strike with eva would of been pretty funny...lol

Da_ghetto_gamer
02-14-2011, 09:30 PM
Do multiple copies stop being attacks once they resolve? Becuase if not then i see no reason why rising typhoon shouldnt be able to multiply with copies of its self since they would still be attacks even if they are facedown

Tagrineth
02-15-2011, 01:04 AM
I'm guessing Jason wants to make more cards that let you pay Multiple using alternative costs, and he just wants to squish the idea of using prior Multiple copies to create later Multiple copies since multiples of multiples has broken the game multiple times in the past.

aslum
02-15-2011, 01:30 AM
Come on, say multiple again. I dare you.

Teagus
03-30-2012, 04:23 PM
would multiple blank foundations be considered copies in your staging area? would they be affected by card abilities that target all copies of a card?

NJBrock22
03-30-2012, 04:37 PM
if you mean for cards like Roam the World or Deceptively Quick: http://forums.jascogames.com/forums/showthread.php?534-Face-Down-Cards-%28Official-Ruling%29

first big paragraph.

N.J.

Teagus
03-30-2012, 04:41 PM
yeah i just found it, its in the first face down one at the bottom of the faq sticky. thanks