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Lono
06-29-2010, 02:45 AM
After looking at the “What do you want in set 15?” poll, and seeing the majority wanting symbol balance, it got me to thinking. It's pretty clear that Fire is the best, and Water is the worst in standard. However, I think it's really important to actually try to answer why. Then I started thinking about the symbols as a whole, where are they now, and what problems have plagued them in the past. This isn't really to discuss the power rankings of the symbols. The goal for this article is to look at each symbols position in standard, and create a healthy discussion on the symbol balance of the game, and its future health.


Fire:
Back in block 3 the worst symbol was Fire. You simply couldn't be Fire against the gray walls. So, the FFG staff gave Fire a massive push in the beginning of block 4. Unfortunately, the combination of the sudden rotation, and the limited amount of balanced one-shot control led to Fire being the dominant symbol. 9 of the 26 set characters have Fire, and that's not including promos. This leads to why Fire is the best symbol in block 4. It has everything.
9 characters worth of support gives you a lot of cards to work with, and it's not just balls out aggro. Pommel Smash, arguably the best control card in standard, has fire. Paid to Protect, THE BEST reduction card in standard, has fire. It has amazing attacks, damage/speed pumps/reductions, card draw, stuns to bejeezus and back, has card destruction, and even check hacks. In an attempt to make fire a more competitive symbol, FFG took the symbol's core identity(aggro), and built it into a true jack-of-all-trades by giving it every tool under the sun.
The current state of Fire is tricky to handle right now. We basically need a break from the symbol itself for awhile. When we come back to making Fire cards again, we need to make sure we don't repeat this mistake. Fire is an aggro symbol, but not every card needs to help further that cause. It needs to start branching off into alternative styles and routes now that a very strong base has been established.

Life:
Life was another symbol that was low level in block 3. It had some great tools (mostly life gain), but no kill condition since CSS was banned. In the beginning of block 4 though, it immediately gained its kill condition via Menuett Dance. It has great utility pieces from Ivy, Tira, Lu Chen, and the best anti-stun cards, Torn Hero and Perfect Sense of Balance. Even then, it was just “good” since you have to work to gain momentum, which makes it slower than fire. What really pushed it over the edge was Quest for Souls, and more specifically, Mitsurugi.
The addition of a Fire/Life character gave Life not only speed boosts, but some great damage pumps. On top of that, Mitsurugi gave the symbol some amazing attacks. In addition, Taki and Xianghua gave life additional speed pumps, foundation readying, and some mean tricks with Playful Slice and Twisting Lotus Flow. Life Xianghua and Kisheri are some of the most threatening non-Fire decks in the format, although they do use cards with fire. Basically, Life is the second best symbol in standard, because it can aggro almost as well as fire and has cards to combat Fire's many tools.
Like Fire, Life needs to now start doing things besides what its known for, speed pumps. Life gain shouldn't come back just yet. I think it's still to soon, and would stifle any creativity within the symbol. When vitality gain does make its return, it needs to be on a very limited amount of cards, with limited amounts of gain.

Void:
Void has surprisingly replaced Earth as the throw symbol, and is also the discard symbol. With Alphard Maliki, Cobra Clutch, Flinging Half Nelson, and Flooded Nile Throw,Void has an amazing throw lineup. Non-throw attacks like Shadow Flare, and Wipe the Floor, and Rolling Revenge round out a solid set of attacks. Basically, Void strips your hand, and then wrecks you with high power throws.
Really, the only form of control Void still has is hand and momentum discard. Other than Ka Technique, Void has no reusable control. Void has an identity through discard, and shares a trait in momentum control with Chaos. However, discard may become dangerous again in the future.
Just like Fire getting to many good pumps (among other things), Void getting too much good discard will allow the symbol to do whatever it wants during their offensive turns. Ways of Punishment immediately comes to mind.

Death:
Death isn't this high up because of its control capabilities, but because of its great aggro possibilities. With the Knight Breaker combo and Jin Kazama, Death has great T2 potential. The thing about the symbol is that every card I could mention are cards that share symbols with the three above. Only Unnatural Grace breaks this, and thats really only used for Death Jin's trying to kill T1.
Death has to attack because the current lineup of Death control is blow up for minimal gain and protection. Covenant Leader, Dead for One Thousand Years, and Intolerant of Failure, are all expensive, situational (except DfOTY), and only last for that attack. Death also has Ka Technique, and Devil Gene (a very underrated card), but that's about it. What Death does well is mass destruction. Between Nightmare, and Kazuya's support, a Death deck can blow the crap out of the opponent's staging area along with their own. With support cards like Tekken Forces (so good), Death can win the trade.
I think Death can carve out a niche for itself as a symbol that plays with the staging area. I liked the direction Tekken gave it with some of Kazuya's cards. Specifically the cards that replace themselves, and cards that let you catch up when you're behind. Another Route it could go is burning. Both Zhao Daiyu, and Yoshimitsu have burn abilities, and it's honestly a route I wish the game would explore more

Chaos:
Chaos has always been an ambiguous symbol. Sure, it could gain, and discard momentum, but Air could do the same and do it better. It could do CC manipulation, but so could Evil, and again better. It never really had anything it stood out on, and was generally cast aside. It still does those things, but now it has even more directions stacked on top. The funny thing, is that it works.
Chaos has 6 set characters, and 6 promos. They all have pretty different strategies, too. Algol is hand manipulation, Cervantes is CC hacks, Kazuya is a character stacker, Zhao Daiyu is burn, Zi Mei is momentum gain, and Taki is about face down foundation control. Still, these cards can all be pooled together to create a deck for each one of them. Jin and Kazuya (and to a lesser extent Heihachi) brought character stacking back in a big way just by being affordable. Cervantes, Zi Mei, and Taki, all like to make liberal use of their momentum. Algol and Zhao still need help in their strategies, but have some gold nuggets in their sets. Chaos is arguably the most hybridized symbol in the format, as it has a little bit of everything.
It shares some control cards with Death, it has a few good CC cards (For the Money being the best), some great momentum gen cards, and even a few damage pump cards. Chaos still relies on keyword abilities, like multiple and combo, instead of raw damage/speed like Fire. Which is how it should be. I think Chaos should continue to explore not only momentum and CC manipulation, but other avenues like character stacking, and whatever unorthodox abilities come out in the future. I mean, it is Chaos.

All:
All is basically as good as it is now, because of the last two sets. Thanks to the massive amounts of stun Paul gave it, and the amount of damage/speed pumps Mitsurugi has. Before the last two sets, it had Algol, Astrid, and Ivy. Poke decks live on their own world, but Genius Alchemist is pretty universally good. Astrid has card draw, as does Algol, along with a weapon theme, but none of these really mesh well together. They just kinda share one or two cards with each other. However, Paul and Mitsurugi, basically have cards everyone can use.
All has amazing stun attacks, attacks in general, great pump foundations, great actions, and about every draw card under the sun. It helps that 3 All characters also share Fire. Basically this creates a similar, but smaller, situation where All has a lot of tools at its disposal. It just isn't as strong as Fire, because its base (card draw) isn't as strong as Fire (balls out aggro).
Card draw is good, but its not as powerful in a game where everyone draws up to 6-7 cards at the start of their turn. It can help you dig into your deck to get the cards you need, but thats about it. I think in order for All to become a less one dimensional symbol, it should look into hand manipulation as a whole, rather than just straight draw.

Earth:
Earth is ol' reliable as far as symbol consistency goes. Like Fire being known for damage pump, Earth is known for damage reduction. It's also known for being the throw heavy symbol, although, I feel that's being contended by Void at the moment. It has a decent lineup of attacks, with nice throws from King. Decent pumps from Ragnar, King, and Astaroth. Earth even has a couple control/anti-control from Rashotep and Siegfried. However, Earth's biggest problem right now is its card pool.
Earth has some of the more ambitious strategies in the first set of Standard. It has Siegfried's symbol manipulation, Rashotep's blanking, and Yi Shan's face up momentum. All pretty different strategies, and none of them mesh to well. Rashotep and Siegfried have some good general tool cards that can fit in most decks, but Yi Shan is pretty centered on his face up momentum. Since he's the only character with that strategy at the moment, it puts a lot of his cards in a kind of dead state. Luckily, there are some more general cards from Ragnar, King, and to a lesser extent, Astaroth that an Earth deck can balance itself out with.
Unfortunately, Earth got almost nothing from Quest for Souls, except for a few solid Lizardman attacks. The main thing that needs to be addressed during the progression of the game however, is to not repeat the mistake that was made with Earth in the past. That mistake was its one dimensionality of damage reduction. If you just make a bunch of cards that do the same thing, and share 1 symbol amongst them, you eventually get a gray wall. While the Gray Wars were largely a part of the undercosted and abundant negation control, another huge contributer was the amount of life gain and damage reduction. As we move forward with this game, Earth has to be more than just a tank for the health of the game.

Order:
Order is the least supported symbols in standard. Only totaling at 58 cards before Quest for Souls. 18 of those are from Hilde, who's self reduction strategy doesn't really meld well with other decks. The others were Astrid, who's weapon strategy is mainly hers, and Paul. Paul, as has been covered exhaustively, gave support to all three of his symbols because, like Mitsurugi, all of his cards are that universally good. The two that came in Quest were Yoshimitsu who gave more discard, and Amy who did something interesting to me.
Several of Amy's cards revolve around the block modifier. Amaryllis Spin in particular, had huge synergy with several Paul cards. They've been errata'd to be printed block for a reason. Still, block modifier manipulation is something I wish for Order to continue exploring. Order was once one of the big 3 control symbols. It still can be, it just can't be all about saying no.

Air:
Oh, Air, you don't have much going for you. If Air didn't have Menuette Dance, it'd probably be in worse shape. But it does, and with its momentum gain tools, it barely makes the cut. It has been one of the least supported symbols with 75 cards before QfS. Xianghua has some nice tools, and Taki has some unorthodox cards. The thing is, while Air has some pretty decent tools, it just that it has to compete with more complete packages like Fire and Life.
It has a couple damage pumps, some decent speed boosts, and Tira gives some nice one-shot blocking foundations. However, it's just not really enough in this format. With guaranteed, consistent speed/damage pumps on huge attacks, Air can't keep up with the top decks. It can't rely on stripping a players hands and throws, like Void. It has momentum gen, Three Rites, Menuette, and that's about it. Playful Slice is also really good, and will lead to more shenanigans than it already can.
Air is another symbol that has stayed relatively one note, while other symbols have branched out in diversity. Air needs to do more than just get, and use momentum. It's cool that they tried to do some weird stuff with Taki, but we need more characters to follow in her footsteps. I believe that once we get enough support, Air will be able to come into its own.

Evil:
Evil used to do everything Now Fire does, and Evil has been left in the corner for being bad for the last 3 blocks. Evil's current condition is almost entirely due to the sudden rotation, and the fact that Evil has been the most dominant symbol for 3 blocks. Right now, it's basically a worse Death. In fact, of the 5 Evil character sets in block 3, only 2 don't also have Death. Not to mention that it has almost no support, along with Earth, in QfS.
Right now Evil is a “blow self up for effects” symbol, like Death, but it doesn't have some of the key pieces to properly carry that strategy. Without Tekken Forces, it's hard to not stay behind on foundations when Fire/Life doesn't have to work nearly as hard to do the same thing, which is currently aggro. Evil has some control pieces, namely Devil Genes and Scroll of the Abyss, some CC hacks, and some aggro cards. Thing is, they usually cost an arm and a leg. This isn't necessarily bad, but without anything to compensate for these costs, the strategy doesn't last more than one turn
Evil is having an identity crisis. It wants to be Fire/Death/Chaos, but doesn't have the cards necessary to pull off any of them well. It has some really good attacks, now it needs good foundations. It just needs more support in general. It needs several different characters that don't share Death, Chaos, or Fire that can give Evil viable decks and strategies.

Good:
Good is basically in the same situation as Evil, but worse. At least Evil has great attacks going for it. Good really lacks string in attacks that could lead into its current finishers, and would benefit from having less expensive finishers. It has Wrath of Heaven, Siegfried's Earth Divide, and King's Reverse DDT, but do you notice the trend? They are all 6/2's that require two other attacks to get their full effect. Wrath of Heaven is rather character-centric, as only Lu Chen or Amy will run the reversals necessary for it. Siegfried's Earth Divide is just too easily stopped for the effort to play it. There are just enough throws in Good to do the DDT combo, but I doubt even King would go through the trouble of doing so. The reason being that all the other symbols have better options when it comes to attacks.
What Good can do is be Hilde. Good has a lot of damage reduction, and self reduction from Hilde herself. She can be competently played off this symbol, as apposed to Fire. With a few good utility and delay cards scattered amongst the characters, Good Hilde can be pretty decent. It also has two reversal characters, but so does another symbol.
Good has always tried to be the defense hybrid, opposite of the aggro hybrid that is Evil. This has, of course, led to problems. Basically creating a second Earth, turtle defense symbol. A lot of care is going to have to be given to make sure things don't get out of hand, while also making it a competitive symbol.

Water:
Ah, the last symbol. Everyone agrees that Water is the worst symbol in standard, and has arguably been the worst symbol (along with Good) in the history of UFS. One quick look might tell you why, besides Amy and some promos, every Water character in Standard has Life. However, I feel that it goes deeper than that reaching back to Water's history as a symbol.
Water has never really had a solid identity. I mean, yes, you could argue its the Reversal symbol, but that style has never really worked. A reversal deck has to work 10 times harder than any other deck. It usually requires your opponent to attack, and then, you have to block it AND be able to play the reversal. Even with the amount of cards that have tried to make this easier, it is still the most difficult archetype to play as. There's further evidence of Waters ambiguity in standard.
There are 5 set Water characters in standard. And they almost all do something drastically different. Yi Shan uses face up momentum, Christie is about kicks and loops, Xianghua is about acceleration and shenanigans, and both Lu Chen and Amy are Reversal-centric. Outside of Amy and Lu Chen, there is almost no synergy between these characters' support.
Christie's cards require you to run kicks. If you do not run kicks, then you do not get any use from her cards. Yi Shan focuses on getting his attacks into his momentum face up, and the only attacks that give that benefit are his, and no one else. Xianghua's attacks are flexible, but can't fit in anyone else's decks due to their own rigidness. Amy and Lu Chen can share cards, but again, thats about it. The other huge problem is that the symbol has arguably the worst list of attacks.
For Water to finally climb out of the bottom tier, and become a competitive symbol, it has to finally get its act together. It needs to solidify a niche and play style that it can do well, and build off of that. I feel that Water needs to look at alternative styles besides reversal, but not a restrictive one like Christie's kicks. At least, not yet. It needs to build a solid base before it can branch off into restrictive specializations.

This is all based on my opinion. I would like to see what the community thinks of each symbols past, present, and what would they like to see in its future.

failed2k
06-29-2010, 07:40 AM
While this was a neat thing to write, I think you really whiffed on the current standings of some of the symbols, but if you were to attempting to remove the symbols from their respective char's you did a okay job of that.

Good is significantly better then I think you gave it credit for, it's a painfully overlooked symbol, it is very sneaky playable I would have it all the way up into B. I think you gave life wayyyy too much credit, like incredibly too much credit, it is a very solid symbol now, but it honestly plays worse in practice then it looks on paper, I think there are probably 3-4 symbols better then it currently. It lacks a variety of playable chars competitively, and ways to pass checks along with a few other smaller holes. I would switch nearly your entire A for B, and move Life down into the new A personally.

Fire is the alpha dog tho, if you can't beat fire decks you can't be competitive, which really hurts a few symbols.

Nekuro
06-29-2010, 08:09 AM
I agree with failed2k, Good isn't as far down as it looks, sure it's not easy to play especially as its characters are somewhat tricky and for some better probably off their other symbols (Siegfried, King), but it is far from being F-Tier right now. It's got quite a few defensive tricks up its sleeve (Shadowar, Know When To Talk, Torn Hero, Enemies Now Friends come to mind), very nifty attacks such as Chi Disruptor on the opponent's turn and the pretty annoying Triple Botta in Tempo (lovely as reversal in Good Hilde may I add ;) ) and a Powerful finish combo with Dragon's Flame. It definitely deserves better than an F in my mind.

SMazzurco
06-29-2010, 08:52 AM
Glance, going to go back and read the whole thing now. But yeah, Good is, well..."good".

Also Chaos can be pretty decent, maybe not as many variations to the builds, but a few characters can rock chaos pretty good

ShadowDragon
06-29-2010, 09:40 AM
Yun-Seong can make Air work pretty well, I'm a little surprised he wasn't mentioned. With attacks like Wheel Kick, First Rite, Assassin's Strike, Mark of the Beast etc he can hit pretty hard. He can use a Communing and then ready it to use it again with ease, making those 6df Assassin's Strikes less of a chore to pass.

I also agree that Good is far better than F Tier. Ever use Siegfried with reversals like Chi Disruptor or Lu Chen's Palm Strike with Cute Prankster to fetch them back? Pretty fun... Good has a lot of decent cards at its disposal, King reduction, Lu Chen reversals/Know When to Talk, Siegfried attacks/Regretful Existance/Torn Hero, Amy support and so on.

RockStar
06-29-2010, 10:38 AM
Lono, great job on putting your thoughts out there, man! I agree with a lot of what you said, especially how the Symbols have historically played in UFS, and how early rotation has affected how they play in our current Standard format. I do think that Good is better than what you have given the Symbol credit for, but only because i've played against several Good symbol'd Lu Chen, Amy, and King decks, and they've all been challenging to beat, regardless of what symbol i've ran.

I think you missed a couple of pieces that make Air better than F tier, although i do agree that it isn't anywhere near the top. Xianghua, Yun-Seong, Playful Slice, and let's not forget the ubiquitous Dragon's Flame really give Air a credible Kill-Threat. Really, Playful Slice in a Dragon's Flame deck make T1 and T2 kills possible.

I do have to disagree with failed2k, however. Life IS as good as advertised. It has some of the best defensive pieces, coupled with some of the most easily spammable foundations that actually DO things (Quick Exit, Torn Hero, etc...), it has some of the best attacks in the game in Full Moon Disembowel, Playful Slice, Menuette Dance, plus one of the very best characters in the game: Mitsurugi. Actually, Mistu's support is really just crazy good (and it also has Fire, go figure). If any Symbol has a chance to take on and defeat Fire right now in our current Standard format, it is a Life deck.

I would love to see Character Stacking designed and developed further. I think Promo Yi Shan should be brought back with a 5-point Shuriken (my opinion only, not gospel truth). Jin Kazama and Heihachi are two of the better character designs in UFS at the moment (again, my opinion only), as they utilize and benefit from running character cards equally effectively, but in a very different fashion; they're really fun to play.

I would also love to see Poke Decks, or Weenie-Rush, style Aggro developed further. I think Ivy is the first character and support design that actually give this style of aggression a competitive chance. I witnessed a wickedly built Christie Monteiro deck battle a solid Hata deck to a virtual stand-still. I've since built a Christie Monteiro deck with some of those concepts in mind, and i've defeated at T1/T2 Killer Heihachi deck. I think she can be a real sleeper of a character...but, i think Ivy's the standard for this style of Aggro.

My 2cents...

failed2k
06-29-2010, 11:06 AM
I never insisted life was bad, but saying it as good as Fire right now is insane. It only has 2 competitive chars, it's attack base is not even near fires in flexibility or quality, it has nearly no card draw, it has no easy/consistant way to make control checks pass easier(and don't say playful slice, it has a 2, and you need to actually play it to make it work, it is Not For the Money or Communing, great attack but not a consistant/EASY +cc).

Is it good against fire? Typically it is, Torn hero is a problem for "some" fire decks and Mitsu is great in general.
Is it as good as fire? God no, I dont think life is better then All/Chaos or even Earth really. As good? Sure. Better? I'm not buying it, and not out of some insane guessing, we had life decks, they worked great, especially against certain fire decks(Paul for example) but also did not fair all that great against others(Cassie/Hata for example).

It is a very solid, competitive off of two of it's chars(Mitsu and Kisheri) and brings good stuff with them, but it is nothing better then the other very solid symbols in the format that hang out right below what fire is capable of.

Lono
06-29-2010, 01:50 PM
Using a ranking was a mistake, so I took them off. I apologize, but the point wasn't discuss the ranking, but to discuss the symbols themselves. I wasn't sure how to jump start the discussion, so I went with a symbol article. Allow me to start over.

What do you think the problem has been with the symbols in standard, and what would you like to see in future sets?

I haven't played all the symbols in standard for some time, so I did miss some things. The reason I put Good so far down is because, while yes there are good cards, they share symbols with what I feel are superior symbols. Earth/Life Siegfried would still have King/Lu Chen cards, and have better attacks.

B-Rad
06-30-2010, 01:08 AM
Very great read good sir, however I will disagree with all the folks who say life is amazing based on ONE card: Paid to Protect.

Life is a very good symbol, and with Mitsurugi you now have the damage pumps to plow through people, but the problem is (and this is especially true with Mits), Life has zero ways to push attacks through that aren't Close Throw without using all of it's speed pumps. Don't get me wrong, life decks against non P2P decks are incredibly hard to damn near impossible to deal with if they're capable of getting their pumps out, but a couple of P2P's on the board simply ruin most Life decks.

Yes cards such as Close Throw and reversal Gut Drills have stun, but if the average player drops 3-4 foundations over the first two turns, and even one of them is a P2P, then there's a pretty good chance they're not dying that turn.

Oh and Failed I disagree with the two playable characters in life. In my opinion there's four:

Mitsurgui for obvious reasons
Kisheri for obvious reasons (assuming she can live long enough to set up)
Ivy (if built right and can draw the right cards. A couple of howling spirits on the table can make those plinks hurt bad)
Tira (her card clearing ability+ being able to Minuet Dance and Vibrato fairly easily)

Lono
06-30-2010, 03:50 AM
I didn't really want to turn this into a "Is Life as good as Fire?" thread, because I wanted this to be a more round table discussion on all the symbols. Also, because it can't do everything and Fire can. But, let me just throw this out real quick.

Do Life decks not run Memories of a Nightmare for anti-tech?

Anyway, despite Life being not as good as Fire, do you think Life needs more support? Personally, I don't think so. Despite having a couple very rigid characters, like Christie and Yi Shan, it has a lot of good general cards. The only thing Life doesn't have right now that it usually does is Life Gain, and I don't want to see that anytime soon.

I would like to see Evil and Water get the most support in the next set. I feel Evil and Water are just being secondary copies of both Death and Life, respectively. Obviously, there needs to be Water without Life cards, but I would also like to see Evil without Death/Chaos/Void. What do you guys think?

RockStar
06-30-2010, 08:33 AM
I didn't really want to turn this into a "Is Life as good as Fire?" thread, because I wanted this to be a more round table discussion on all the symbols. Also, because it can't do everything and Fire can. But, let me just throw this out real quick.

Do Life decks not run Memories of a Nightmare for anti-tech?

Anyway, despite Life being not as good as Fire, do you think Life needs more support? Personally, I don't think so. Despite having a couple very rigid characters, like Christie and Yi Shan, it has a lot of good general cards. The only thing Life doesn't have right now that it usually does is Life Gain, and I don't want to see that anytime soon.

I would like to see Evil and Water get the most support in the next set. I feel Evil and Water are just being secondary copies of both Death and Life, respectively. Obviously, there needs to be Water without Life cards, but I would also like to see Evil without Death/Chaos/Void. What do you guys think?

I'm glad you mentioned Memories of a Nightmare, because it's one of those cards that if you can find room for it, even in the SB, then you should.

Back on topic...I'm looking forward to seeing Water get some support. I remember when the first SNK/Samurai Showdown set was released and Water got it's first real bump in power...much rejoicing was to be had. For me, it really made me look at Terry Bogard. I think what Water has traditionally been in UFS has been a Reversal symbol, but it's also the symbol that has also had the most Attack Loops, and i'd like to see that focused on as well. Anyone remember Ibis Minuette + Agohana Geri?? Stoopid, especially with 8.Chun Li!

We already have one character who does it: Christie, and OMG, she has Water!! And, in the most weird scenario's the SSS Loop goes for infinite!

Baranor
06-30-2010, 11:14 AM
Word, on the water separation from life. Before Amy, here is the list of cards that had water without life:

Cobra Twist
Dariya
Padma
Patriot Games
Perfect Memory

That's 5 cards! Only 1 non-promo/champion. Even with the new set we received Xiangua who has Water AND Life? That's now 4 characters in 4 sets that have Water and Life! There are 1320 combinations of symbols in this game and only 10 that have water AND life on them. The interesting part about this game is the variety that is provided by the symbols. If water is all but a subset of Life then there really are only 11 symbols and we the players lose.

I've only built one water deck in my 4 years playing this game, but gd-it I want to build another one!

Judas225
06-30-2010, 12:12 PM
I didn't really want to turn this into a "Is Life as good as Fire?" thread, because I wanted this to be a more round table discussion on all the symbols. Also, because it can't do everything and Fire can. But, let me just throw this out real quick.

Do Life decks not run Memories of a Nightmare for anti-tech?

Anyway, despite Life being not as good as Fire, do you think Life needs more support? Personally, I don't think so. Despite having a couple very rigid characters, like Christie and Yi Shan, it has a lot of good general cards. The only thing Life doesn't have right now that it usually does is Life Gain, and I don't want to see that anytime soon.

I would like to see Evil and Water get the most support in the next set. I feel Evil and Water are just being secondary copies of both Death and Life, respectively. Obviously, there needs to be Water without Life cards, but I would also like to see Evil without Death/Chaos/Void. What do you guys think?

Life doesn't really need any major support, although a little more poke support would be nice. What it has now rewards creativity and experimentation to anybody willing to take a gamble. Sure it's not as easy to play as fire but it can easily survive and do some serious damage if you know what you're doing.

Paid to Protect still only kills one attack per copy. It can be blanked using Memories of a Nightmare and No Forgiveness and it's not exactly a surprise since you can see it plain and clear in your opponent's staging area, meaning you're not going to pump all your resources into one attack when you see that card.

For other symbols, yes we need to see Evil and Water taken up quite a bit. Evil was started off in a good direction that unfortunately crosses into Death for now, being a type of suicide aggro, but it needs to break away from Death and focus on something unique to itself. Likewise, I agree that Water is basically a clone of Life for now, besides Amy's support. It needs to be fleshed out a bit more, but as of right now it has a solid base to expand further into card pool manipulation and attack loops without needing Life on every card.

More symbols later when I have the time. Good read Lono.

Baranor
06-30-2010, 05:26 PM
Life doesn't really need any major support, although a little more poke support would be nice.

Not to be all trolly, but Life needs poke support? Of the 18 attacks that have at most a 3 diff and a 3 check, 10 of them have life!

Just wanted to jump in there with that.

SMazzurco
06-30-2010, 07:53 PM
Not to be all trolly, but Life needs poke support? Of the 18 attacks that have at most a 3 diff and a 3 check, 10 of them have life!

Just wanted to jump in there with that.

Yes it has pokes, now it needs poke support.

RockStar
06-30-2010, 07:59 PM
Yes it has pokes, now it needs poke support.

...but please do take a gander at my proposed Fei Long Set in the Card Creation and Design portion of these boards. I got the poke-support on lock, yo! :cool:

Seriously, would love to hear some feedback on my Set.

Back on topic...I do envision Life, and to a lesser extent, All, becoming the standard bearers for weenie rush style decks. We already have Ivy and Christie sporting both All and Life, and their attacks and support are definitely of this type of aggressive play-style.

Judas225
07-01-2010, 01:39 AM
Not to be all trolly, but Life needs poke support? Of the 18 attacks that have at most a 3 diff and a 3 check, 10 of them have life!

Just wanted to jump in there with that.

The reason I say it needs a bit more poke support is, while there are a ton of small, cheap attacks, very few cards offer any direct benefit for playing a ton of small, cheap attacks. Howling Spirits and Cross Madness, Lowdown Neb is actually a useful finisher, but aside from being extremely cheap you're almost forced into running a specific set of attacks in your deck.

I'm not saying Life needs anything grand, but a few more floating effects would help both creativity and versatility in poke rush strategies. One of the only major obstacles to poke rush being effective is multiple copies of Man Behind the Mask. Some way to get around that, like an effect similar to Ka Technique would be very useful.

Hatman
07-01-2010, 10:06 AM
Good is crazy stupid, but because it's, historically, the worst symbol in the game, few people are willing to explore it.

Nekuro
07-01-2010, 10:31 AM
Good is crazy stupid, but because it's, historically, the worst symbol in the game, few people are willing to explore it.

I wouldn't go so far as to say that good is crazy stupid, but it does have a few interesting shenanigans to it ^^ A little more Good support wouldn't hurt though to move its potential up a bit more (as for the moment, it's still lacking a little something to go BOOM :D )

Hatman
07-01-2010, 10:39 AM
I wouldn't go so far as to say that good is crazy stupid, but it does have a few interesting shenanigans to it ^^ A little more Good support wouldn't hurt though to move its potential up a bit more (as for the moment, it's still lacking a little something to go BOOM :D )
It can go boom fine. I have been smoked enough by the symbol to know this.

Da_ghetto_gamer
07-01-2010, 02:48 PM
What needs to happen is the symbols need to be given an identity and it needs to stay that way...

Fire shouldnt have damage reduction out the bunghole, Wind shouldnt have tons of negation, Death shouldnt have tons of card draw like it did at the end of block 3 etc...

yeah there are always going to be a couple cards that splash over due to 3 symbols printed on all cards but theres a way to balance out all the symbols like they were originally were meant to be...

Fragbait
07-01-2010, 02:56 PM
I agree with the above. This isn't MtG, but at the same time we need unifying factors throughout the symbols. But of course, we need a little spillover to keep things interesting. I wouldn't complain if I got some Wind cards that negate...Chun-Li could use that xD

Da_ghetto_gamer
07-06-2010, 02:47 PM
Of course we need some overflow but fire shouldnt have more negation then death which in the past has been the negation symbol I

Tagrineth
07-07-2010, 01:15 AM
More cards need to have just one or two symbols, depending on their function. The paradigm of 3-symbols-per-card that's been set since the beginning needs to stop being the norm.

Target X
07-07-2010, 09:17 AM
Agreed, it also reduces the risk of splashed symbols causing design trouble or unforeseen abominations in future sets.

SMazzurco
07-07-2010, 09:19 AM
I like how Xianghua doesn't really care what symbols are printed on her foundations.

Bloodrunstrue
07-07-2010, 02:38 PM
More cards need to have just one or two symbols, depending on their function. The paradigm of 3-symbols-per-card that's been set since the beginning needs to stop being the norm.

Why?

Please enlighten me
Thankyou
Bloodrunstrue

Tagrineth
07-07-2010, 03:22 PM
Why?

Please enlighten me
Thankyou
Bloodrunstrue

So we get less unwanted spillover from cards like Paid to Protect that fits in perfectly for Earth and Void but has WTF, FIRE on it.

SMazzurco
07-07-2010, 03:25 PM
So we get less unwanted spillover from cards like Paid to Protect that fits in perfectly for Earth and Void but has WTF, FIRE on it.

Is that a problem with it having 3 symbols or just a problem with one of the symbols it has?

It should of had order or water or something. Even death would of been a better fit than, like you said, WTF FIRE

Tagrineth
07-07-2010, 06:33 PM
Is that a problem with it having 3 symbols or just a problem with one of the symbols it has?

It should of had order or water or something. Even death would of been a better fit than, like you said, WTF FIRE

Water would be the most sensible third symbol for it.

I'm just using PTP as a random example, but what I'm saying is cards with really strong effects in their field should have fewer symbols because they don't have to have 3 symbols just for the sake of having 3 symbols like always. Especially a card with only one ability - Yoga Mastery for example, it shouldn't have had All because its ability is pure heavy negation which is the realm of Death and Void and always has been. Sure, All got Syndicate and Chester's... eventually... but meh =p it's just an example.

Bloodrunstrue
07-08-2010, 02:07 PM
Water would be the most sensible third symbol for it.

I'm just using PTP as a random example, but what I'm saying is cards with really strong effects in their field should have fewer symbols because they don't have to have 3 symbols just for the sake of having 3 symbols like always. Especially a card with only one ability - Yoga Mastery for example, it shouldn't have had All because its ability is pure heavy negation which is the realm of Death and Void and always has been. Sure, All got Syndicate and Chester's... eventually... but meh =p it's just an example.

I suppose I agree with this idea.
However, I like it that powerful cards maintain 3 symbols since this allows for more options across the board, also if each symbol were to establish an 'identity' I.E fire was Speed+Damage and water was looping then we would eventually find which identity was 'strongest' or 'top tier', and the game would be imblanced as a result. For that reason hope Jasco continues printing cards with threee symbols

Also, never bring back infinity, see what it did last time? -_-

Da_ghetto_gamer
07-08-2010, 03:00 PM
Its just going to be really hard to keep certain cards from getting certain symbols because of the character thats on the card all of mitsu's cards are going to have fire, just like all of Yun-seoungs cards have had wind

Of course you could stop giving certain abilties to certain characters but thats a whole mess of stuff that i dont want to go into right now

SMazzurco
07-08-2010, 04:26 PM
The new mitsu has all/fire/life.
Some of his support does not have all 3 symbols. (it has a random 3rd symbol, idr atm)
It would be just as easy to print some support with only 2 symbols like tag said (they have done this in the past i beleive) especially on "power" cards.

Omega
07-08-2010, 09:20 PM
Poor Order. =(

But Order has never EVER been a 'no' symbol. That's always been Death and Evil.

Order = resource control (committing). And it needs more. And I say that both as an Order player, and as someone who's working on an aggro Life deck. It's very boring having to play all games the same way, trying to crank out a kill as quickly as possible. There's no fun in that. =/

Amaru
07-19-2010, 01:04 AM
What needs to happen is the symbols need to be given an identity and it needs to stay that way...

Fire shouldnt have damage reduction out the bunghole, Wind shouldnt have tons of negation, Death shouldnt have tons of card draw like it did at the end of block 3 etc...

yeah there are always going to be a couple cards that splash over due to 3 symbols printed on all cards but theres a way to balance out all the symbols like they were originally were meant to be...


More cards need to have just one or two symbols, depending on their function. The paradigm of 3-symbols-per-card that's been set since the beginning needs to stop being the norm.

That's effectively one of the things this game need to make sure it won't die again a third time. But the problem you are pointing with the spillover hide another bigger problem. Simply that they need to print cards with 3 symbols, otherwise they simply couldn't support so many symbols in one set even with a bigger card space. If they just print cards with 2 symbols, you would end up with only 4 symbols MAX from which you would have a card pool big enough to make deck construction around it possible. One solution would be reducing the numbers of resources, or maybe if the rigidity of the resource chain was to be lifted a bit such problems would not happen, and we could support 12 resources in the game.

This resource chain system make deck construction an unintuitive experience for casual people who just want to try the game real quick and get a deck going. I say that because I KNOW a friend of mine who actually bought some UFS a long time ago, he is an avid fighting games fan and was ready to make the jump to becoming a card game fan, but from what he told me it was impossible from him to get a good deck done with the cards he bought, and I know he was telling the truth because I have been in such a situation.

Tagrineth
07-20-2010, 01:29 PM
We aren't saying no card should ever again have 3 symbols, just that it's okay for cards to start having fewer symbols more often to curb effect-creep into the wrong symbols.