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VikTheSlick
07-09-2010, 09:14 AM
Hey guys, I'm thinking of writing a piece on the Standard metagame. However, uh, there isn't really any data available since the last major tournament was won with a now banned character. So, I was wondering if you all would help me out a bit. Please answer the following questions if you would:

1. What are you running in Standard right now?
2. Do you feel this deck is a competitive deck that can win Worlds, and why or why not?
3. What is your opinion of the banning of Hata, Path and Stand Off? Good or bad for the format?
4. What is your opinion of For The Money still being legal in Standard? Good or bad for the format?
5. If I asked you to name the Top 5 decks in Standard right now, you would say...?

Thanks all, appreciate the answers. I have a fairly good idea of what Standard would and should look like despite lack of play with Set 14, but I want some evidence to support my assertions as always. LMK what's up with you HAWT STANDARD TECHZORZ?

ATLDrew
07-09-2010, 09:31 AM
Already working on an article on the current face of standard. Call meh nub cakes.

SMazzurco
07-09-2010, 09:42 AM
1. What are you running in Standard right now?
Xianghua. This was pre-standoff banning though. Also working on Hilde.

2. Do you feel this deck is a competitive deck that can win Worlds, and why or why not?
Xia - possibly. Although it is pretty hard for 7HSers to survive against certain decks. If she gets the right pieces and doesn't check 3 twos in a row, i think she is viable. She can kill 7HSers T1 without too much difficulty and multiple times has dealt 30+ dmg T2.

Hilde - Hilde is just dumb. Reduces opponents attacks while boosting her own. I think she is a powerhouse.

3. What is your opinion of the banning of Hata, Path and Stand Off? Good or bad for the format?
All 3 should of been errata'd at best. If hata was speed or dmg, and/or could only change zones of his attack, he would be nowhere near as broken.

Path should of blown itself up, done dmg equal to printed symbols, to unique symbols, etc. Lots could of been done to balance it. I think it was banned because not everyone was able to go to MN and get a set.

Stand-off was fine. Again i feel it was banned because of availability as opposed to overall power. How about if it was errata'd so that if negated it blew itself up? (a la for the money)

4. What is your opinion of For The Money still being legal in Standard? Good or bad for the format?
Honestly don't see it as a big problem card. Unless your opponent drops 3 first turn they are usually not that difficult to deal with. Especially compared to the shennanigans that used to be prevalent in standard.

5. If I asked you to name the Top 5 decks in Standard right now, you would say...?
In no particular order:
Hilde, Jin, Mitsu, Xia, the last spot im not sure. Rasho is not the best deck in the format, but he is a deck that a lot of decks don't want to sit across from. Also Lu can wreck any combo-centric deck.

Target X
07-09-2010, 10:24 AM
1- I'm currently running Good Amy
2-It's unlikely it'd win worlds. Tough my current build has very high survivability despite her low life, Good falls a little short in the reliable damage department. Paid to protect also ruins my day.
3-All three bannings were nessessary for the game to go on. the cards were not only impossible to get for new players, they were also completely over powered when compared to the rest of the currently available cards. Stand off and Path also encouraged grey wars,
4-In and of itself ''For the money'' is a pretty balanced card. Unfortunatly, the heavy stun centered meta makes it a problem. Theres no risk in using it if you commit your opponent's entire board with 2 attacks.
5- 1- Fire Paul Phoenix 2- Life kisheri 3- Fire Astrid 4- Life Ivy 5 - Earth King

SMazzurco
07-09-2010, 11:18 AM
Life kisheri is stopped cold with anti-discard. 2 Tieh Lien and she is almost dead. A free reversal gut drill slows her down drastrically. Game 1 she is great, but if she is that good i think hate for her will float around, even if just in the SB

Shiros
07-09-2010, 12:14 PM
1. What are you running in Standard right now?
I either run Fire Kyoufu or Chaos Jin.

2. Do you feel this deck is a competitive deck that can win Worlds, and why or why not?
Yes to both my decks. Why? They're both insanely fast and hit insanely hard, pretty much the key to victory in UFS' current situation.

3. What is your opinion of the banning of Hata, Path and Stand Off? Good or bad for the format?
Both Hata and Path needed to go. Stand off could have gotten off with an errata to committing itself. Stand Off was a good card but nowhere near broken or OP. If anything, an errata and reprint should have happened. Just so silly to ban the card.

4. What is your opinion of For The Money still being legal in Standard? Good or bad for the format?
For The Money is far better than Stand Off, yet it's still around. I don't get this logic, it's horrible for the format.

5. If I asked you to name the Top 5 decks in Standard right now, you would say...?
That I have no clue, everything has a chance.

Yoko Charming Fox
07-09-2010, 01:27 PM
1. What are you running in Standard right now: I'm running Good Sigfried and Fire Kyoufu

2. Do you feel this deck is a competitive deck that can win Worlds, and why or why not: I couldn't say. My play group consists of me and two other people right now, neither of which are running highly competitive decks, so I don't have a good idea of what I would have to go up against at worlds.

3. What is your opinion of the banning of Hata, Path and Stand Off? Good or bad for the format: It was great for the game.

4. What is your opinion of For The Money still being legal in Standard? Good or bad for the format: I'm glad that FTM is still legal. Its a really good cards, but it does not need the be banned. Its not that hard to get around, unless your facing multible copies, expecialy if you have a Torn Hero on the board. I will admit that FTM is somewhat OP, but this could easly be dealt with my giving more symbols access to antidiscard.

5. If I asked you to name the Top 5 decks in Standard right now, you would say: I really not sure since I have not seen enough of the decks that are out there but here are some decks that I think have a shot a winning worlds: Caos Heihachi, Fire Astrid, Fire/Caos Jin, Fire Rangnar, Mountain King.

NJBrock22
07-09-2010, 02:10 PM
Hey guys, I'm thinking of writing a piece on the Standard metagame. However, uh, there isn't really any data available since the last major tournament was won with a now banned character. So, I was wondering if you all would help me out a bit. Please answer the following questions if you would:

1. What are you running in Standard right now?
2. Do you feel this deck is a competitive deck that can win Worlds, and why or why not?
3. What is your opinion of the banning of Hata, Path and Stand Off? Good or bad for the format?
4. What is your opinion of For The Money still being legal in Standard? Good or bad for the format?
5. If I asked you to name the Top 5 decks in Standard right now, you would say...?

Thanks all, appreciate the answers. I have a fairly good idea of what Standard would and should look like despite lack of play with Set 14, but I want some evidence to support my assertions as always. LMK what's up with you HAWT STANDARD TECHZORZ?

1) Unfortunately only playing Extended right now... but i have All/Life Ivy7 in the works.
2) Switching Weapon Styles + Genius Alchemist = i'll play 10-14 attacks this turn, yes it should be competitive
3) All 3 Banhammer, Hata and Stand Off also should be looked at for Extended too, Path can be dealt with in Extended thru a lot of asset hate.
4) It's Good, not EXTREMELY overpowered though, like a was said earlier though, 1 isn't a problem, 2 is meh, 3 on turn 1 CAN be overwhelming. Still not as bad as it seems, though combo it and Commune with the Ancients... and you have never fail situations for your attacks.
5) hmm in no particular order: Chaos Jin/Kazuya[same character pretty much], Earth/Void King, Life Kishiri, Astrid(doesn't matter the symbol), Good/Order Amy Other mentionables: Life X, Fire Mitsurugi, Fire Zi Mei(see Ben's deck from SCC II) & Chaos/Fire Mishima

N.J.

Bloodrunstrue
07-09-2010, 02:20 PM
Hey guys, I'm thinking of writing a piece on the Standard metagame. However, uh, there isn't really any data available since the last major tournament was won with a now banned character. So, I was wondering if you all would help me out a bit. Please answer the following questions if you would:

1. What are you running in Standard right now?
2. Do you feel this deck is a competitive deck that can win Worlds, and why or why not?
3. What is your opinion of the banning of Hata, Path and Stand Off? Good or bad for the format?
4. What is your opinion of For The Money still being legal in Standard? Good or bad for the format?
5. If I asked you to name the Top 5 decks in Standard right now, you would say...?

Thanks all, appreciate the answers. I have a fairly good idea of what Standard would and should look like despite lack of play with Set 14, but I want some evidence to support my assertions as always. LMK what's up with you HAWT STANDARD TECHZORZ?

In Standard UFS I am currently running Fire Hilde, Life Ivy, Order Amy, Fire Mitsurigi, Fire Heihachi and Fire Jin Kazama
I will comment on Hilde, Ivy and Heihachi as I feel they are the most relevant.

I Feel that Hilde could still win worlds, because she still has access to the best resource: Fire and coupled with her ridiculous Dual wielding, she wins games very quickly even with stand off banned.
Ivy most certainly couldn't, or at least not without uber lucksacking, I feel she is currently the worst deck in standard although I will explian this later.
Heihachi is arguably the most consistent t1/2 character in the meta currently, in fact he's my favourite to win this year's worlds! He turns any off his attacks into at least 7 damage and combined with cheap stun such as Zi mei's wheel kick he gets silly quickly. Should be placed on the watchlist.

I am in favour of the banning of POTM, Hata and stand off. Potm was a mistake in my opinion, I understand FFG's notion of having one card which is accessible to all symbols but not of that power level, there was also the issue of accessibility; it would be extremey difficult for newer players to come by them. On the other hand, POTM was pssibly the only thing that allowed poke decks such as Christie and Ivy to compete in the face of stand off and was undenibaly a fantastic piece of support for thier archetypes.

My verdict on POTM: It deserved to be banned, however I would like to see something of it's ilk in the future.

Hata was stupidly overpowered character no matter which angle you look at it from, you should know yourself Vic having won the last major with him. His lack of accessibility coupled with the fact that he pushed fire over the top almost freely was too much, he was possibly the best character in the meta at the time.

My Verdict: Definite ban, thanks for nothing Hata. You ruined standard with your half fulfilled promises in person and your card only deteriorted things further.

Stand off, oh geez, I loved this card but I feel that it was far too defensive and paid off for the use far too well even if negated, lastly it promoted grey wars so it needed to be banned from standard although it is fine in the other two formats.

My Verdict: The ban was a good idea. Hopefully it won't be reincarnated in future.

For the money- Eh, I've never really had a problem with it TBH. It's only stupid in a dedicated deck as far as i'm aware. I'm aware that thier are power issues surrounding the card but to be frank I think we should wait and see what Jasco brings with their set. They may solve the problem.

My top 5: (In no particular order)
Heihachi Mishima
John Herr (Yes you heard, Jon Frickin' Herr)
Hilde
Jin Kazama
Astrid

Worst decks in Standard:
Ivy (Serioulsy, just try killing someone with pokes now, it's predictable, slow, and nowhere near as reliable or consistent as fire.)

Thankyou for reading
Bloodrunstrue

makingsenseofus
07-09-2010, 03:09 PM
1. Chaos Heihachi
2. Potentially, I just need to be a good player
3. Standoff- Yeah, this card was a problem. It turned every foundation in the staging area into a potential damage reduction regardless of what it did anyways. In that way it kind of encouraged foundation wars. As for path, I had no problem with this card except for king. King took path to another level of broken. As for James Hata, he does have one of the best offensive and defensive abilities in the format. Drop some stun attacks and a hammer of the gods and you were sending (practically) unblockable attacks across for piles of damage. Whether or not he was ban worthy? Idk. the only time I got to play against that deck was in the finals of SAS 2009.
4. For the money is too good. Drop a for the money turn one and a wheel kick on 2 and all of a sudden you can play 4 attacks on turn 2 without trying. This card does win games, and with stun being so accessible, I don't think its needed in the format. It just makes fire that much better.
5. Heihachi, Sophitia, Xianghua (dave wagoner's version of this deck is sick nasty fast), Kisheri (she speed pumps just as well as she discards) and astrid(?)

Omega
07-09-2010, 04:41 PM
1. Fire Sophitia/Life Xianghua
2. Eh...possibly. She's pretty beastly, when she wants to be.
3. None of them should have been banned. There were excellent, simple, and extremely reasonable erratae possible for all three (Smazz literally took the words out of my mouth earlier, since the erratae for Hata and Path were the exact ones I was mouthing off about xD) - but instead, they were banned, which, in my opinion, is slightly disrespectful in the case of Hata (he won Worlds for friggin' sake - work with it a little).
4. Meh. For the Money. Whatever. I think it shouldn't have been printed with FIRE, but beyond that, it's perfectly fine.
5. Jin is easily the best deck in the format. Astrid is a solid second, with Paul, Kisheri, and King being the next contenders, in my opinion.

RockStar
07-09-2010, 05:38 PM
1. What are you running in Standard right now?
Depends. If i'm playing a local tournament i pretty much will build anything just to experiment and see what works and what doesn't. Steve Fox, Zi Mei, Bryan Fury, and Christie and Ivy are some of my favorite experiments that i would never take to a major tournament. For the big tournaments i'm reppin' Life Mitsu and/or Chaos Jin.

2. Do you feel this deck is a competitive deck that can win Worlds, and why or why not?
Life Mitsu is a beast, because he has Aggro spd and dmg pumps built in, and he can focus on using Life's amazing defensive tricks to stay alive. I think Mitsu has a chance to win Worlds, because he is a very linear character that requires very little set-up to kill 28 vp characters. Chaos Jin is a bit trickier, and he isn't my pick to win Worlds, although i do see a T8 finish as a possibility. He does require some set-up, and this can potentially slow him down.

3. What is your opinion of the banning of Hata, Path and Stand Off? Good or bad for the format?
I understand why the cards were banned; it was the simplest course of action. I think it may have been overkill, as each could've still been very playable in Standard with an errata. It does streamline the current Standard format with them being gone, and i think that's a good thing, particularly for newer players.

4. What is your opinion of For The Money still being legal in Standard? Good or bad for the format?
I don't have a problem with FtM. I prefer the card to be in my staging area, but i know how to play around it, too.

5. If I asked you to name the Top 5 decks in Standard right now, you would say...?
In no particular order...
Fire/Order Hilde
Life Mitsu
Chaos Jin
Death Tira
Life/Good Lu Chen

Judas225
07-09-2010, 05:55 PM
Hey guys, I'm thinking of writing a piece on the Standard metagame. However, uh, there isn't really any data available since the last major tournament was won with a now banned character. So, I was wondering if you all would help me out a bit. Please answer the following questions if you would:

1. What are you running in Standard right now?
2. Do you feel this deck is a competitive deck that can win Worlds, and why or why not?
3. What is your opinion of the banning of Hata, Path and Stand Off? Good or bad for the format?
4. What is your opinion of For The Money still being legal in Standard? Good or bad for the format?
5. If I asked you to name the Top 5 decks in Standard right now, you would say...?

Thanks all, appreciate the answers. I have a fairly good idea of what Standard would and should look like despite lack of play with Set 14, but I want some evidence to support my assertions as always. LMK what's up with you HAWT STANDARD TECHZORZ?

1. Life Christie Monteiro (main), Chaos Kilik, Good Lu Chen. Various other decks.

2. Kilik, maybe. He's a hit or miss strategy that either goes off or stalls out, but both of his abilities can be used to adapt to the pace of the game.
Lu Chen, definitely. Card pool clogging and good overall attack power.
Christie Monteiro. I know I could do it with my build but most anybody who hasn't played against the deck will tell you it can't be done. She's a character that caters to a unique style of play but can still take on just about anything.(I don't use the loop, it's too easy to disrupt.) I've blocked 6 attacks in one turn and still had 5 cards in hand, play out 4-8 attacks on an average kill turn, have taken my deck through a field of Stand Off and Man Behind The Mask successfully, and I went into a 3 hour stand still against a brutal Hata deck (and player) at a recent tourney in Santa Cruz. Unfortunately I won't be at worlds this year to prove it.

3. Hata could have gotten away with an errata or two. Path on the other hand has two problem abilities, not just one. The damage boost being the largest problem, many people don't seem to realize just how stupid that free draw can get in the right decks.
Stand Off didn't need to be banned. Sure it is annoying, but the cost of two foundations per enhance takes its toll after a few well thought out enhances. All this talk of "Stand Off kills weenie decks" is simply not true. All it takes is a bit of creativity and planning to get through the curtain, and all those small attacks add up after a while. Pump the attack to 1 damage, you still get the effect unless they use more resources to block, in which case that's less things you have to worry about pushing your way through. Man Behind the Mask kills weenie decks a lot harder than Stand Off ever did.

4. Mid-late game FtM isn't very overpowered. It's just the fact that multiple copies early can cause some serious damage before you have a chance to set up.

5. Just about every deck, style, and strategy is viable in Standard. Having built a ton of different decks there's simply none that I would call better than all others, although there are certainly some better than others not a single character sticks out far enough from the rest.

Viewtiful Joe
07-10-2010, 04:39 AM
1. Fire Sophitia/Chaos Kazuya
2. Both could potentially do well, I suppose, Kazuya more than Sophitia, I don't think people realise how beastly his damage/speed pump actually is, given that you're more often than not playing it in Chaos, which is a resource that doesn't have as much number-pump as other resources. Sophitia's pretty awesome with Pauls' support though, very underrated I feel (or at least around here, she is)
3. I have no problem with any card being banned, as I think it shifts the meta in different directions, not necessarily better or worse, although I'm not sure I agree with banning a champion card in any respect, no matter how busted they may be. Matt Kohls got an errata after all. Path did need to go, I think. Even with errrata on the damage pump, an asset with any sort of damage pump and FREE draw power isn't right. Besides, I think it's best we get rid of the Infinity symbol sooner rather than later, I never did agree with UFS having 'wild cards' short of really basic sorts of things like Trade Your Passion For Glory or Eye Of The Tiger. Stand Off didn't NEED to go, but I can see why people wanted it gone.
4. I have no problem with For The Money, really. I think people only really have a problem with it because it has Fire, and as the game progresses, other symbols will become more powerful and be able to keep up with it. I don't think it's THAT bad even now.
5. I would probably say that the most likely top 5 would end up being Jin, Hilde, Astrid (Reversal Pommel Smashes are still highly unpleasant!), Mitsurugi, and maybe, MAYBE Xianghua. I say Xianghua more out of hope than anything else, because I love the character and I've heard a lot of people are playing her really well, but I can't seem to get her to work. :P I'd say there were quite a few dark horses though as well. I'm looking at Amy, Lu Chen, Paul Phoenix, Kazuya, Sophitia, and possibly even Brian Fury (stops Hilde dead as well as Paid To Protect and other damage reduction that Mitsurugi struggles with).

On a sidenote, Judas, I would love to know how you run Christie, been wanting to run her for ages, and just couldn't figure her out! :P

RockStar
07-10-2010, 09:13 AM
On a sidenote, Judas, I would love to know how you run Christie, been wanting to run her for ages, and just couldn't figure her out! :P

I was the TO for the Santa Cruz, CA UFS Tournament that Judas and his crew attended, and i saw his Christie deck first hand. Without spoiling his tech, his version of Christie utilized insane amounts of card draw to throw an ungodly amount of attacks on his turn. I will also say that his version of Christie is built on Life, and is nearly 70 cards big (including Christie)!

Thus far, Judas has dibs on the best Christie build i've seen played.

Da_ghetto_gamer
07-10-2010, 09:47 AM
1. Running Air Yun-Seoung at the moment i also have a earth/good siegfried deck that pretty nasty but i dont enjoy playing it as much
2. Definitely Air is being overlooked at the moment by alot of people who arent playing zi-mei and this deck can crank out damage like theres no tomarrow....and still survive with the best of em...overall i think it has a good shot
3. Giving Errata's to cards is always my preference so that way you can still play with the cards that you worked so hard to get but if the format is going to get better from the bannings im all for it
4. Its not that bad of a card....plenty of ways to deal with it and while yeah 3 by turn 2 can get pretty dumb but its not as bad as most people make it out 2 be
5. Im not sure...our meta is really off from the outside world and now that hata is gone and astrid is nerfed a little things are more wide open. In our meta though its probably....Yun-seoung, Misturugi, Heihachi, Lu chen, and amy not really in that order but somewhat close

RockStar
07-10-2010, 11:26 AM
2. Definitely Air is being overlooked at the moment by alot of people who arent playing zi-mei and this deck can crank out damage like theres no tomarrow....and still survive with the best of em...overall i think it has a good shot


Smazzurco has a Xianghua deck built off Air, and it's really mean. I agree with you: Air is being overlooked, but i think in large part because it only has a couple characters that can really front that symbol and be competitive: Xianghua for sure. And, i think Taki would be interesting and just off-center enough to win games because she is so unexpected and non-linear.

Judas225
07-10-2010, 12:37 PM
I was the TO for the Santa Cruz, CA UFS Tournament that Judas and his crew attended, and i saw his Christie deck first hand. Without spoiling his tech, his version of Christie utilized insane amounts of card draw to throw an ungodly amount of attacks on his turn. I will also say that his version of Christie is built on Life, and is nearly 70 cards big (including Christie)!

Thus far, Judas has dibs on the best Christie build i've seen played.

Rockstar, I don't mind a basic description like this but please don't give any specific details. This thing was hard enough to build and test to get to what it is now and I'm still debating one small change that will give me .5 base percent for a certain variable that could make a large difference in how smooth the deck runs.

Sorry Joe, not posting this build anywhere. I did post my very first competitive build Christie on the old FFG forums but that didn't go well considering the community at the time. Might go have a look there to get some insight into how it started.

RockStar
07-10-2010, 01:22 PM
Rockstar, I don't mind a basic description like this but please don't give any specific details. This thing was hard enough to build and test to get to what it is now and I'm still debating one small change that will give me .5 base percent for a certain variable that could make a large difference in how smooth the deck runs.

Sorry Joe, not posting this build anywhere. I did post my very first competitive build Christie on the old FFG forums but that didn't go well considering the community at the time. Might go have a look there to get some insight into how it started.

Hey Judas, i'm sorry if even speaking of the symbol and a ballpark figure card-count is too much; i didn't think it would be. To be sure, the specifics of your deck aren't mine to spoil, and i certainly won't be posting any Christie decks that contain your Kung Fu in them in the near future.

Your secret tech is safe.

Judas225
07-10-2010, 01:37 PM
Hey Judas, i'm sorry if even speaking of the symbol and a ballpark figure card-count is too much; i didn't think it would be. To be sure, the specifics of your deck aren't mine to spoil, and i certainly won't be posting any Christie decks that contain your Kung Fu in them in the near future.

Your secret tech is safe.

It wasn't too much in itself. The symbol and the basic concept of the deck aren't anything worth keeping secret. What I was referring to is specific card layouts and attack strings. I'm not complaining about what you said, I was simply wanting to catch it before it got to be a conversation topic. Not that I don't trust you, but sometimes things slip by that we don't realize when people get to having a conversation. No worries about what you said though.

dutpotd
07-10-2010, 03:27 PM
Good questions Vik! And I look forward to reading any and all pieces you write.

1. Running Hilde competitively in standard, but have also built a Lizardman and Kilik deck with set 14 stuff that caught my eye. Played around with Mitsu and would like to build a Xianghua, but I need a bit bigger card pool for her still. If I find time I have a nice idea for her in extended.

2. I'm pretty sure my Hilde is, it's has won the two city championships it's played in... edging the now banned Hata in one and Heiachi's as well.

3. I'm fine with changes to the meta game, I'm not convinced Hata 'needed' to be banned, but it is probably for the best granted not many new players (and lets hope we can attract some) will have easy access to it. With Path banned a few characters lose their viability, Ivy and King are not nearly as strong as they used to be, not to mention Zi Mei also takes a pretty big hit with this one. Stand Off is a good card because it is great utility in most decks, although it only really shines in some. I don't think it needed to be banned either, but I nevere cared for it that much and welcome the change.

4. For the Money is a very strong card if on the field in the early goings of a game. I might get flamed for this but I like it because it gives decks more agressive options and altogether speeds up the game (stops many decks from needing/relying on long build stages which can get tedious).

5. Well I have to say my deck is number 1, i.e. Hilde, that goes without saying but obviously I am biased. All the others I won't rank here (cuz I can't right now) goes to Heiachi, Sophitia/Paul the resource stun + FtM decks are very strong, Jin is deceptively strong as well, Mitsu will be interesting to see play out, and Yoshi can surprise people. Astrid is still top tier as well, but she is weakened (not defeated) by the errata.

- dut

NJBrock22
07-10-2010, 03:33 PM
hell what would make me happy, Ivy & Christie BOTH Make the top 4 just to shut people up about those decks not being viable... now you HAVE to go to Worlds and prove Christie is more than just a 1 trick pony. Grr... now i wish i could go to worlds with my Ivy build and start destroying the haters....

Oh and BRT, you're about to be Banned from Standard if ya don't stop hating on Ivy7...

N.J.

Sieg
07-10-2010, 06:50 PM
1. Chaos Heihachi
2. Yes because it pumps out 4-5 big attacks on the 2nd turn / 1st turn as an uncommitted character. yes a lot of lucksacking but it works. it can pump out sooo much damage fast and that's what the game is about. i want to play other decks but i suck at this game and making a deck on my own.
3. Hata - sure there could be stuff to gimp him but im unconcerned. if he wasnt banned i would have played it. Path- gone, too OP, and most decks would abuse it and revolve around it. Stand Off- didnt need to be banned, i never had a problem against it but then again i dont really care. not the first card i liked a lot that got banned.
4. card is kinda balanced, just matters when it's dropped and how many of it. card enables all decks of it's symbols but oh well i'll deal with it.
5. 1st/2nd Heihachi, 1st/2nd Lizardman, 3rd Astrid, 4th Mitsurugi, 5th King/Hilde

VikTheSlick
07-11-2010, 11:44 AM
So far the results of this informal poll are quite interesting. I have to say I am rather surprised by how few people have a problem with For The Money, I really really hate that card with a passion and think right now it is far too overpowered in Standard but I guess given the opinions here it isn't as ban worthy as I thought.

I will add my own answers to these questions soon, and please keep them coming. Very good insights on this thread!

Omega
07-11-2010, 01:01 PM
Game needs more foundations-based committal abilities.

And momentum generation that's not stupidly overcosted or based on dealing damage with attacks, ffs. There's a lot of momentum HATE, but no momentum creation.

Basically, the game needs more than just IN YOUR FACE AGGRO RAGE GRRRRR IMMA BASH YER FACE IN BWARGH

Judas225
07-11-2010, 01:05 PM
Game needs more foundations-based committal abilities.

And momentum generation that's not stupidly overcosted or based on dealing damage with attacks, ffs. There's a lot of momentum HATE, but no momentum creation.

Basically, the game needs more than just IN YOUR FACE AGGRO RAGE GRRRRR IMMA BASH YER FACE IN BWARGH

There's more than enough momentum generation with Chaos and Air. Though I wouldn't mind something similar to Yun-Seong's ability printed on a foundation I really don't think that we need much, if any, non-attack momentum gen for other symbols.

RockStar
07-11-2010, 03:26 PM
There's more than enough momentum generation with Chaos and Air. Though I wouldn't mind something similar to Yun-Seong's ability printed on a foundation I really don't think that we need much, if any, non-attack momentum gen for other symbols.

I have to agree with Judas. Air and Chaos, and to a lesser extent All, Life, and Water have momentum generation a plenty, and i'm not convinced the other symbols in the game need that, especially if we're talking about each symbol having a specific role and theme in Standard UFS.

As far as foundation-based committal...i'm not opposed to it, so long as the text, or equivalent text of "this foundation does not ready on your opponent's turn..." is stricken from the Standard vernacular. Being able to shut down foundations for a full turn and a half for no cost other than committing said foundation is broke. Maybe if the committing foundation had a cost of "Destroy this foundation", or "Commit, Discard 1 momentum"...then, yeah...i could see that.

B-Rad
07-11-2010, 08:27 PM
1. What are you running in Standard right now?

Current build is Fire Zi Mei. After Astrid and King got neutered into nye uselessness (I don't care what anyone says, Fire Astrid reversal > than this triple beta schtuff)

2. Do you feel this deck is a competitive deck that can win Worlds, and why or why not?

If I were going, absolutly I think it could stand a chance. So far it has beaten everyone that I've played against in my playgroup at least 2-1 in best of three. Granted it hasn't played a few of the newer decks built (that'll change tomorrow), but it can turn 2-3 or even go as long as turn 10 and still win.

3. What is your opinion of the banning of Hata, Path and Stand Off? Good or bad for the format?

Good riddance to bad rubbish. UFS has never had a good designer (I got my fingers crossed for Jason to not disappoint :D) or too many well thought out promos, and these ones are prime example. All were overpowered for their cost (or in some case lack of cost), all brutally disrupted the meta, and all were increadibly hard to get. Hopefully they never come back and are banned from all formats.

4. What is your opinion of For The Money still being legal in Standard? Good or bad for the format?

Horrible for the format on one condition: The deck running it is either Fire or All. Yes Chaos has Wheel Kick and Deadly Bling, but being able to go Hammer, Hammer, Thruster without actually commiting anything is a lot much. It should've went with the rest of the crap Jason banned, but eh oversights happen. My money says that it'll be gone (with potentially Fury of the Ancients if Zi Mei wins) after World's.

5. If I asked you to name the Top 5 decks in Standard right now, you would say...?

In zero particular order:

Fire Zi Mei (Wheel Kick, Lifter, Neutron Bomb, Fury)
Fire Cassandra (same as Zi Mei, cept replace Fury with Dragon Flame)
Fire Paul Phoenix (Stun is the most overpowered ability in the game against decks not named Life)
Fire Jin (Giving Fire MORE check boosting, plus free damage pump... Yeesh)
Toss up between any decent Fire character not named Astrid

Nyobari
07-11-2010, 10:00 PM
For the Money is more of the effect rather than the cause of the issue. It's due to the amount of Stun attacks that Fire has that causes For the Money to be so OP. If you take out those attacks, and now that Stand Off is gone, For the Money isn't nearly that good as it is now early game. Compare it to say, Float Like a Butterfly and you're dealing with a similar level of power. But, in current standard, you don't have the answers to it, either, or enough good answers to Stun (Sorry, Torn Hero ain't enough here).

Hilde is the other issue in the format. She is OP by far, she's far worse than Astrid was before she got errata'd. IMHO, you ban Dual Wielding and errata her so that she doesn't give the speed boost along with the damage boost. It's incredibly stupid that a card like Acrobatic does nothing against her. I'll be in shock if either she doesn't win or you get a Zi Mei Fury of the Ancients which is really masquerading as Hilde doesn't win Worlds right now.

Mordai
07-12-2010, 01:41 AM
1. What are you running in Standard right now?
Astrid. altough needs to be rebuilt now with the errata.
2. Do you feel this deck is a competitive deck that can win Worlds, and why or why not?
It would definatly be a stable deck still. Win? hmm..
3. What is your opinion of the banning of Hata, Path and Stand Off? Good or bad for the format?
Standoff: Should've just gotten unique stamped. Path: silly card got what it deserved
Hata: An errata might've been better, but as he was he was way to strong
4. What is your opinion of For The Money still being legal in Standard? Good or bad for the format?
It's fine really. Also gives ppl an excuse to play Astaroth, no? It is how ever insanly strong in a heavy stun based deck. But banning a card because its strong in one type of deck is unnessecary imo
5. If I asked you to name the Top 5 decks in Standard right now, you would say...?
Hilde:With Amy and her own stuff she is gross
Mitsurugi-Jin-Paul: They are all solid fire chars with good stats and abilities
Lu Chen: Yes Lu chen, he is a hidden gem, the guy who runs him here gets pretty awesome statistics with him

Omega
07-12-2010, 08:28 AM
I have to agree with Judas. Air and Chaos, and to a lesser extent All, Life, and Water have momentum generation a plenty, and i'm not convinced the other symbols in the game need that, especially if we're talking about each symbol having a specific role and theme in Standard UFS.

As far as foundation-based committal...i'm not opposed to it, so long as the text, or equivalent text of "this foundation does not ready on your opponent's turn..." is stricken from the Standard vernacular. Being able to shut down foundations for a full turn and a half for no cost other than committing said foundation is broke. Maybe if the committing foundation had a cost of "Destroy this foundation", or "Commit, Discard 1 momentum"...then, yeah...i could see that.
One Christie card does not momentum generation make. I'm talking about GOOD momentum, or at least fairly costed. I know White Magic would be OP in this format, because God forbid people be able to reliably have 1-2 momentum at any time (and that's without thinking about the insanely high number of anti-momentum cards).

And I'm not going to lie, I really, REALLY hate this format, because everything is overcosted and it's just not...FUN without some level of jank/differentiation; the best decks are always Fire, and their decklists are pretty similar, and that is boring. Last format, you could do all sorts of stuff from aggro to control to Reversals to mill, and have it be successful.

And nah, I think that some actual one-for-one committal wouldn't be so bad. Trade Your Passion, minus the character part, as an example. Or even Experienced Combatant, since two cards is a pretty heavy cost when there's so little card draw (beyond Fire, which shouldn't have such a card) that two cards can be the death of you very easily, and with a pretty fair bit of readying tech as well. Maybe Chinese Boxing is a bit much, but everyone acts like Program Malfunction was broken - it wasn't. It was meant to go best with Huitzil, whose abilities kept him from readying foundations EVER. Not to mention the 3-diff.

I have a lot of issues with the format, tbh. And those are what keeps me from actively doing something or wanting to play. I like the OTT jank and difficulty of Legacy, because everything is busted. I like the psychological aspect of the game - it's not much fun, and there's no heart-pounding thrill, when the game revolves around who can get Quick Strike -> FML out more quickly. =/



1. Current build is Fire Zi Mei. After Astrid and King got neutered into nye uselessness (I don't care what anyone says, Fire Astrid reversal > than this triple beta schtuff)

2. If I were going, absolutly I think it could stand a chance. So far it has beaten everyone that I've played against in my playgroup at least 2-1 in best of three. Granted it hasn't played a few of the newer decks built (that'll change tomorrow), but it can turn 2-3 or even go as long as turn 10 and still win.

3. Good riddance to bad rubbish. UFS has never had a good designer (I got my fingers crossed for Jason to not disappoint :D) or too many well thought out promos, and these ones are prime example. All were overpowered for their cost (or in some case lack of cost), all brutally disrupted the meta, and all were increadibly hard to get. Hopefully they never come back and are banned from all formats.

4. Horrible for the format on one condition: The deck running it is either Fire or All. Yes Chaos has Wheel Kick and Deadly Bling, but being able to go Hammer, Hammer, Thruster without actually commiting anything is a lot much. It should've went with the rest of the crap Jason banned, but eh oversights happen. My money says that it'll be gone (with potentially Fury of the Ancients if Zi Mei wins) after World's.

5. In zero particular order:

Fire Zi Mei (Wheel Kick, Lifter, Neutron Bomb, Fury)
Fire Cassandra (same as Zi Mei, cept replace Fury with Dragon Flame)
Fire Paul Phoenix (Stun is the most overpowered ability in the game against decks not named Life)
Fire Jin (Giving Fire MORE check boosting, plus free damage pump... Yeesh)
Toss up between any decent Fire character not named Astrid
So Astrid and King are useless, but your Astrid deck is apparently amazingly good, and nobody has ever been a good designer, making GOOD cards, or banned the cards that you thought should go. And you never think a simple errata is an answer - everything should always be banned, at all times.

Why do you even play the game when all you do is complain?




By the way, Paid to Protect should be banned, because there are fewer copies of it available than there are Stand Off, and that was the reason for Stand Off being banned.

ATLDrew
07-12-2010, 09:09 AM
One Christie card does not momentum generation make. I'm talking about GOOD momentum, or at least fairly costed. I know White Magic would be OP in this format, because God forbid people be able to reliably have 1-2 momentum at any time (and that's without thinking about the insanely high number of anti-momentum cards).

And I'm not going to lie, I really, REALLY hate this format, because everything is overcosted and it's just not...FUN without some level of jank/differentiation; the best decks are always Fire, and their decklists are pretty similar, and that is boring. Last format, you could do all sorts of stuff from aggro to control to Reversals to mill, and have it be successful.

And nah, I think that some actual one-for-one committal wouldn't be so bad. Trade Your Passion, minus the character part, as an example. Or even Experienced Combatant, since two cards is a pretty heavy cost when there's so little card draw (beyond Fire, which shouldn't have such a card) that two cards can be the death of you very easily, and with a pretty fair bit of readying tech as well. Maybe Chinese Boxing is a bit much, but everyone acts like Program Malfunction was broken - it wasn't. It was meant to go best with Huitzil, whose abilities kept him from readying foundations EVER. Not to mention the 3-diff.

I have a lot of issues with the format, tbh. And those are what keeps me from actively doing something or wanting to play. I like the OTT jank and difficulty of Legacy, because everything is busted. I like the psychological aspect of the game - it's not much fun, and there's no heart-pounding thrill, when the game revolves around who can get Quick Strike -> FML out more quickly. =/



So Astrid and King are useless, but your Astrid deck is apparently amazingly good, and nobody has ever been a good designer, making GOOD cards, or banned the cards that you thought should go. And you never think a simple errata is an answer - everything should always be banned, at all times.

Why do you even play the game when all you do is complain?




By the way, Paid to Protect should be banned, because there are fewer copies of it available than there are Stand Off, and that was the reason for Stand Off being banned.

Why is everyone saying that Stand Off was banned because of availability? Has anyone actually even PLAYED against Stand Off in standard? If you're looking at Stand Off through Extended colored glasses then yes that makes sense. Extended has 12 billion ways around it. STANDARD is the issue. Does nobody see how this card single handedly ruined ENTIRE ARCHETYPES by itself? Or how it gave Fire the best redux AND best reusable damage pump in the format? Or how it made stun the absolute BEST keyword in UFS hands down? In what meta are you playing in where this card is balanced and well designed? It is not a fun mechanic. It slows games to a crawl. I makes several decks completely unplayable. It lets you absolutely blow someone up turn 2 with a DECENT draw. I guarantee that if this card was left in standard, you would see 32 copies of it in top 8 at worlds this year.

Also, I disagree with you on the bad designers ominineneneneneneneneno geese. Hata was a great designer. The format was just too far screwed for him to do anything about it. He tried to make Fire and aggro in general solid to get us out of gray wars, but the format was too sour and forced rotation was the last thing to do. Problem is with 3 sets legal that all feature fire, that symbol becomes a little op. That being said, I feel that the last 4 sets are some of the best designed sets in UFS period. Stuff is well costed, have cool mechanics, and i mean hell the game feels like youre playing a fighting game again. It just sucks that fire is op right now. And thats not even Hata's fault. Nobody planned for forced rotation. It just kinda happened.

Omega
07-12-2010, 09:32 AM
Nah, that's what I was informed of - that SO was banned for that reason. Personally, I didn't feel like it was so bad, but...I hated the ridiculous forced rotation, and like the block 3 format immensely.

And no, you misunderstand - that's what HE is saying. I'm paraphrasing what he's saying to ask why he bothers playing. Personally, I rather like Quest of Souls in particular - defo my favorite set for Standard, and my favorite set since probably Realm of Midnight as a whole. All of the cards are pretty well thought out, with the one exception being FML (Full Moon Disembowel), which is definitely overpowered for its cost. I mean, c'mon...Waterfall does less damage and has a greater combo restriction and difficulty. Based on what the format as a whole has shaped up to be, FML should have had a difficulty of 6 or 7, and either a 1 or 2 check based on that (6/1 or 7/2), especially since it has Fire...but, then again, the difficulty wouldn't have mattered anyway because it's Fire. =/

But I still disagree on being well-costed. Removing a foundation from play for 1 momentum? C'mon. Natural Leader was much more balanced than that =/

I think the major part of forced rotation I disagree with is the 'one license per set, five characters only' BS. Either give us two licenses at a time with 5 characters each, or give us one license with 7-8 characters.

RockStar
07-12-2010, 09:32 AM
One Christie card does not momentum generation make. I'm talking about GOOD momentum, or at least fairly costed. I know White Magic would be OP in this format, because God forbid people be able to reliably have 1-2 momentum at any time (and that's without thinking about the insanely high number of anti-momentum cards).

And I'm not going to lie, I really, REALLY hate this format, because everything is overcosted and it's just not...FUN without some level of jank/differentiation; the best decks are always Fire, and their decklists are pretty similar, and that is boring. Last format, you could do all sorts of stuff from aggro to control to Reversals to mill, and have it be successful.

And nah, I think that some actual one-for-one committal wouldn't be so bad. Trade Your Passion, minus the character part, as an example. Or even Experienced Combatant, since two cards is a pretty heavy cost when there's so little card draw (beyond Fire, which shouldn't have such a card) that two cards can be the death of you very easily, and with a pretty fair bit of readying tech as well. Maybe Chinese Boxing is a bit much, but everyone acts like Program Malfunction was broken - it wasn't. It was meant to go best with Huitzil, whose abilities kept him from readying foundations EVER. Not to mention the 3-diff.

I have a lot of issues with the format, tbh. And those are what keeps me from actively doing something or wanting to play. I like the OTT jank and difficulty of Legacy, because everything is busted. I like the psychological aspect of the game - it's not much fun, and there's no heart-pounding thrill, when the game revolves around who can get Quick Strike -> FML out more quickly. =/




Wow. No offense, man, but i think you're a bit out of touch with how Standard is actually played, and this is coming from a player who actually repped Life Mitsu - so liberal use of Quick Strike - and took 3rd at a recent Event between 3 play groups (only 12 players total, i understand, but i've also taken 4th out of a field of 32 at an AoP Event). Some of the better decks at that event didn't run Quick Strike at all. And, having been around since The Next Level, i witnessed first hand how the game devolved to the point where only Control decks were winning.

Seriously, does anyone remember the Death/Fire Zi Mei (promo) deck that won the last Worlds? It sported Fury of the Ancients as it's ONLY attack, and it was a wall of gray almost larger than the Great Wall in China, and a whole heckuva lot more impregnable.

An acquaintance of mine who went by the name of Archimedes on the older boards, and was a perennial ace of this game, took an aggro deck to that same Worlds, a deck he was having regular success with. Word is he got so frustrated with the Wall of Grey UFS had become that he quit mid-tournament. I'm made to understand there were a few players who did the same, so frustrating, and seemingly, pointless it was to initiate an attack (unless you were sure you could kill).

No, ALL playstyles are NOT viable in Legacy, and only a bit moreso in Extended. I'm sure for certain players some play styles will always be more fun...but, they won't always be competitive. Or maybe i'm looking at it wrong: ALL playstyles are viable, but NOT all playstyles are competitive in said formats. Well, i guess that's cool if you like no-win scenarios...at least you can have FUN while being shut down by another player. Rad. :/

In Standard, every (well-constructed) deck has a chance.

That said, there's a reason why Fire decks are currently tops in our current Standard format. It's because our Standard format is largely incomplete. The cards that were released before FFG dropped the game were never intended to stand alone, as they were created to counter the mass-Control from last Block. This has frequently been said, and it's understood to be fact. Sure, it's an Aggro players' dream right now in Standard, just as Legacy is a Control player's world.

I do believe that the new Set Release in October will go a ways to evening the balance between Aggro vs Control. I'm also hoping that Tempo sees a bit more support; we've already started to see it with Taki and her support.

With regards to Committal effects on foundations...I liked Manifest Destiny and Experienced Combatant A LOT! I thought they were good committal-control cards that were evenly costed. I have a real problem with cards like Chinese Boxer and Programmed Malfunction because they shut down a player's foundations for essentially a turn and a half, and for no other cost than turning one of your own sideways. PM being a Form makes it a bit more manageable, but doesn't mean that it isn't OP. Text that say "...your opponent's card doesn't ready on their turn" is extremely powerful and need a larger cost than just "Commit".

With regards to Momentum Generation...i do think there should be more momentum generation for different symbols, but it really needs to be managed. I do NOT believe that EVERY symbol needs or should have momentum generation available to them, as it really waters down the exclusivity and individuality of certain symbols. If every symbol had each other's thematic abilities, than the format would be really watered down, and why then have symbols in the first place?

That said, what are some cards from older sets that allowed for momentum gen that you liked, and would like to see a similar card reprinted in future releases? What symbol/s do you think it appropriate to have momentum generation outside of successfully attacking/damaging?

Omega
07-12-2010, 09:59 AM
Wow. No offense, man, but i think you're a bit out of touch with how Standard is actually played, and this is coming from a player who actually repped Life Mitsu - so liberal use of Quick Strike - and took 3rd at a recent Event between 3 play groups (only 12 players total, i understand, but i've also taken 4th out of a field of 32 at an AoP Event). Some of the better decks at that event didn't run Quick Strike at all. And, having been around since The Next Level, i witnessed first hand how the game devolved to the point where only Control decks were winning.

Seriously, does anyone remember the Death/Fire Zi Mei (promo) deck that won the last Worlds? It sported Fury of the Ancients as it's ONLY attack, and it was a wall of gray almost larger than the Great Wall in China, and a whole heckuva lot more impregnable.

An acquaintance of mine who went by the name of Archimedes on the older boards, and was a perennial ace of this game, took an aggro deck to that same Worlds, a deck he was having regular success with. Word is he got so frustrated with the Wall of Grey UFS had become that he quit mid-tournament. I'm made to understand there were a few players who did the same, so frustrating, and seemingly, pointless it was to initiate an attack (unless you were sure you could kill).

No, ALL playstyles are NOT viable in Legacy, and only a bit moreso in Extended. I'm sure for certain players some play styles will always be more fun...but, they won't always be competitive. Or maybe i'm looking at it wrong: ALL playstyles are viable, but NOT all playstyles are competitive in said formats. Well, i guess that's cool if you like no-win scenarios...at least you can have FUN while being shut down by another player. Rad. :/

In Standard, every (well-constructed) deck has a chance.

That said, there's a reason why Fire decks are currently tops in our current Standard format. It's because our Standard format is largely incomplete. The cards that were released before FFG dropped the game were never intended to stand alone, as they were created to counter the mass-Control from last Block. This has frequently been said, and it's understood to be fact. Sure, it's an Aggro players' dream right now in Standard, just as Legacy is a Control player's world.

I do believe that the new Set Release in October will go a ways to evening the balance between Aggro vs Control. I'm also hoping that Tempo sees a bit more support; we've already started to see it with Taki and her support.

With regards to Committal effects on foundations...I liked Manifest Destiny and Experienced Combatant A LOT! I thought they were good committal-control cards that were evenly costed. I have a real problem with cards like Chinese Boxer and Programmed Malfunction because they shut down a player's foundations for essentially a turn and a half, and for no other cost than turning one of your own sideways. PM being a Form makes it a bit more manageable, but doesn't mean that it isn't OP. Text that say "...your opponent's card doesn't ready on their turn" is extremely powerful and need a larger cost than just "Commit".

With regards to Momentum Generation...i do think there should be more momentum generation for different symbols, but it really needs to be managed. I do NOT believe that EVERY symbol needs or should have momentum generation available to them, as it really waters down the exclusivity and individuality of certain symbols. If every symbol had each other's thematic abilities, than the format would be really watered down, and why then have symbols in the first place?

That said, what are some cards from older sets that allowed for momentum gen that you liked, and would like to see a similar card reprinted in future releases? What symbol/s do you think it appropriate to have momentum generation outside of successfully attacking/damaging?
Yep, I am out of touch, because I just stopped caring when they shut it down. But my general point is that the game is so aggro that if you can't win by turn 3, your deck isn't tournament viable. I get wanting to cut down on grey wars, but it also alienates the control playerbase when there's no options for that. I don't like aggro. I just don't. Or, at least, not like this. My first tournament-viable deck was promo Ukyo off of Evil, sporting Messatsu-Gorasen as the kill card. And I liked going for the rush kill quickly. But what wasn't fun at all was the Adon decks that would pass a turn 1 Challenge the Master, and then Chain Throw/Overhand/Absurd you into oblivion before you got to play a card. And that's what this is. It's gotten to the point where playing foundations is what loses you the game. Quick Strike is merely anecdotal - but the fact is that FML is the best kill card of the format, without question.

And I disagree on things not being competitive. I didn't go to worlds '09, but I did help the people from our group who went work on their decks. One of my best friends was running a Fio deck that was one loss shy of top 16. And it wasn't grey wars-y at all - yeah, it had control, but that isn't what the deck did. Only running four copies of one attack is absolutely ridiculous, yes, and should absolutely be discouraged. I have personally laughed my ass off every time I have thought about how the deck got popped by Collecting Data. But at the same time, I liked being able to run 9 attacks in my deck (not including splits), and still have it be viable. Which you CANNOT do anymore. I like combo-centric decks. I like aggressive decks. I like control decks. But what I do not like is decks that kill the other player so quickly that you can't even tell what kind of deck your opponent is running. I don't liked being forced to play the game in a specific way, rather than being able to choose how I play it. Sure, the format may not be complete, but that's the point - why rotate it, then? I want to be able to build a deck that can make it to turn 5 on a consistent basis (though that's not what I do, just an example). And that just ain't happening.

And anything you can think of in Legacy is absolutely competitive. Mill via RFG or straight discard. Aggro. Control. Retarded loops. ANTYHING. I've seen it firsthand. I've DONE it. And that's why I love it - you literally cannot plan or tech against everything, because the field is so open. xD However, I do think that the Void/Death walling is kinda dumb-ish.

And I agree with your points on committal and momentum, for the most part. Though I'd prefer Megalomania to Manifest =P But no, not every symbol needs momentum generation, but I think that there should be some non-crap ways to get some on the spot, if you want or need some. There are so many cards whose cost is momentum, and not enough ways to get it. Not saying Whereabouts should be reprinted, but something like Wonderworld would be great (though I don't care for the 'from your hand to momentum' part, and would prefer it to be from the top of the deck instead).

But as examples - Natural Leader would be great. Achieving Your Goals, Chinese Boxing's first enhance, Cocky, Dancing Battle Ibuki, Confrontation (lol, 3 check foundations), Crane Swoop, DESTINY (which had one of the best Response abilities I've seen in AGES, because it was creative, while useful), White Gi...I can keep going if you like. =D

Tagrineth
07-12-2010, 12:21 PM
There's actually a surprising amount of momentum generation. We built a Chaos Jin deck for a local player that was based on killing with Curse of the Ancient Mariner, and it could regularly push 8+ momentum for Curse... and this was prior to set 14 (assassin's secret YUM).

No, it's not as good as momentum generation used to be. We want you to ATTACK YOUR OPPONENT. We don't want abilities that cost momentum to be totally ubiquitous like they tend to be in Legacy. WORK for your momentum dangit! Even if the momentum isn't actually gained during the end phase (I love Atoning For the Past), it should still require attacking in some form.

Hatman
07-12-2010, 12:50 PM
1. What are you running in Standard right now?
2. Do you feel this deck is a competitive deck that can win Worlds, and why or why not?
3. What is your opinion of the banning of Hata, Path and Stand Off? Good or bad for the format?
4. What is your opinion of For The Money still being legal in Standard? Good or bad for the format?
5. If I asked you to name the Top 5 decks in Standard right now, you would say...?

1 - Since QfS hit, I've ran : Void Lizardman (doesn't work much), Death Padma (lack cards to make it survive), Good Siegfried (who's so not good), Earth King (even without PotM, he may be worth a look-see). I currently have Evil Jon Herr (pretty much foundation destruction Aggro) and Death Zhao Daiyu (same as Padma with more control and less aggro). If I had the resources, I'd build Air/Fire Temujin and Earth Siegfried (Lower Celtis into Double Grounder Beta into Rolling Revenge - RR is your kill).

2 - I'm not going to Worlds, why should I care?

3 - a) James Hata created a big problem in that any foundation with a "E Commit" or any attack with " E Commit 1 foundation" had a chance to be borderline stupid with Hata and in fact created the same design problem as Military Rank and Hugo3. In addition, the card being impossible to find for new players (Let's face it it wasn't exactly the easiest card to find in the first place due to the circumstances in which it was created) makes it a prime candidate for banning.

b) Path of the Master was poorly worded and the E simply should not have been on there. Remove that and I love that card. Plus, it's not easily available unless you are an avid internet trader, and with internet trading not being worth people's while nowadays, well...

c) Stand-Off created uninteresting choices for the opponent. The abilities had a good cost (2 foundations for +4/-4), but the sheer versatility of the card made it so popular. Needed damage nerf? Stand-Off. Needed damage pumps? Stand-Off. Needed foundation committal? Stand-Off. It was almost the answer to everything. Glad it's gone, but out of the three it's the one I could care less about it being gone. I didn't use it even if I had a playset.

4- For the Money has the right idea : It promotes smart usage (You don't necessarily want to use it all the time if your opponent has foundations up, but at the same time, you may want to if you really want him to commit those last two foundations), but with Stun being overrepresented on attacks (especially in All and Fire), it doesn't become an interesting card more than a nuisance. Is it worth banning? No. Is it going to be a pain? Yes.

5- I would say name any 5 characters with Fire.

dutpotd
07-12-2010, 01:28 PM
5- I would say name any 5 characters with Fire.

I've seen this in B-rad's post more or less too, so don't think I am just replying to you Hatman, just the pro-fire stance in general.

From my personal experience, I recently piloted a good deck to a city championship undefeated. Mind you it had a lot of cards that also had fire on it, and it wasn't really a good deck, it was tri-symbol with the majority of cards with the good symbol on them...

In any case, I don't think Fire as a symbol is enough. I think the top 5 characters probably/maybe all have fire on them, but that is more of a - many characters have fire on them thing and not a - 6/28 or 7/20 with fire is top 5 by default because they have fire on them thing.

- dut

Hatman
07-12-2010, 01:44 PM
I've seen this in B-rad's post more or less too, so don't think I am just replying to you Hatman, just the pro-fire stance in general.

From my personal experience, I recently piloted a good deck to a city championship undefeated. Mind you it had a lot of cards that also had fire on it, and it wasn't really a good deck, it was tri-symbol with the majority of cards with the good symbol on them...

In any case, I don't think Fire as a symbol is enough. I think the top 5 characters probably/maybe all have fire on them, but that is more of a - many characters have fire on them thing and not a - 6/28 or 7/20 with fire is top 5 by default because they have fire on them thing.

- dut

It's more because unless your character has a more effective gimmick (Hilde/Zi Mei) using Fire cards, Fire decks will play in the same fashion using the same cards and honestly, characters are interchangeable. I know that I'm not expecting Astaroth to go over Hilde (although Astaroth's Hades Destroyer scares kittens. With Need to Destroy that can be outright vicious in a Evil/Fire spread as even at 2 momentum it's a +4 damage, with NtD bringing that up to 6) or, say, Temujin (though I think he's extremely underrated but that's because of the Combo system and few people having the patience to deal with it), but considering that King lost a lot of efficiency and may not have the cards to compensate (BTW : Yes, ComboKing works, but it's not an easy deck to build and pilot. It's an interesting one to do, however), and that other symbols are lacking in options (whether characters to complement the symbol's cards or vice versa), I maintain that my Top 5 is Fire statement is true.

Hell, even my Air/Fire Temujin is pretty much Fire with 2 exceptions.

B-Rad
07-12-2010, 06:59 PM
So Astrid and King are useless, but your Astrid deck is apparently amazingly good, and nobody has ever been a good designer, making GOOD cards, or banned the cards that you thought should go. And you never think a simple errata is an answer - everything should always be banned, at all times.

Why do you even play the game when all you do is complain?

.

Thanks for the reply :) Good to know folks read my posts. Anyways I'll explain better than my original post:

Astrid pre nerf into the ground was a beast. Ask anyone who played my version down at the SAS last year. Astrid now is mediocre at best. Yes you can Triple Beta Whatever, but that means either you're splashing Order (which can come back and bite you) OR your playing Order, which is a mistake in the first place if you choose it over Fire. Yes you get some nifty things like Cursed Blood and Amy's stuff, but you miss out on:

Mitsurugi's Stuff
Astaroth's Stuff (namely Hungry and Enraged)
Paid to Protect (I hear it's kinda a good card)

King's power level was dropped dramatically with Path's much needed banning. While he's playable in that you can put him into a deck and play him, and a few throw for 4-6 damage before pumps is nice, but why not play a character with a built in damage pump (Sigfried, Ragnar come to mind quickly) that lets you use yer toon all throughout the turn, as opposed to once.

Oh yeah, and no because of all the crap that they've let into the game. With Dave what's his name, to the transition to FFG, to James Hata, we've had crap like reverse waterfall, Promo Tira, Addes with Dave, and then things like Stand Off, Path of the Master, For the Money, and Paid to Protect (all things folks have complained about in the past), so no... I don't think we've had good designers. Good designers actually think things through and not release THAT much crazy crap. A little bit, I can understand, but still.

And no I think simple errata aren't good for this reason: I don't feel like carrying around a stack of papers telling me what stuff really does now. Also, usually when errata's come into effect, there's a good chance (at least if the recent erratas) that they will become nearly unplayable.

Oh and Dut, you're crazy. Tri symbol Hilde is neat, and I'm seriously contemplating building it, but at the same time there's still a chance you can stall out and get screwed with crappy symbols. Fire's just more consistant.

dutpotd
07-12-2010, 08:06 PM
Oh and Dut, you're crazy. Tri symbol Hilde is neat, and I'm seriously contemplating building it, but at the same time there's still a chance you can stall out and get screwed with crappy symbols. Fire's just more consistant.



Can't argue with the crazy part. Imma gonna post said deck and tourney report (what I can remember) from back in January so you can see but I should use the tri-symbol term loosely - all the attacks and actions have Good on them, 12 attacks and 5 actions, and of the staging area cards (assets/foundations) 38 of 49 cards have Good on them, 30 of 49 have Order, and 28 of 49 have Fire.

The deck has never stalled out for lack of symbols, and including playtesting I'd say that is like a 15/15 round record or something. Of course there are situations where I want to get two offset cards down in a same turn, or what not, but the deck is built to give me enough defensive options to be able to pick and choose the right one for the situation.

In all honesty, my Good deck was more consistent than the Fire one was. And I think the sole reason for that was that Good has Torn Hero, the sole fact that I was getting it often enough when mulliganing against the stun heavy meta matchups gave me the edge to win many many matches.

And maybe that comes back to Vik's problem with For the Money, Fire doesn't really have an answer for itself and herin lies a big problem. I'm looking for a symbol and deck that gives me better than 50/50 agrothons, and as strong as Fire is at the moment I can't say with any certainty that it gives me that against other top tier fire decks/players.

- dut

JinKazama
07-12-2010, 08:19 PM
I dont understand the complaints about aot of these cards, personaly I think the only one that breaks the game is stand off/ Astrid to a lesser extent

Hata is broke yes. worth banning maybe
path not broke in my eyes maybe cause every deck ive played against ran it. it needed to be banned onlt because of king/ shoulda just been a terrain
Stand off was a no brainer in my eyes it was just too good, and i dont see why people think its more available than other power promos i have a playset of p2p and 0 SO. Not that availability will ever be a good reason to ban a card. Because it wont.

For the money is fine its stun thats broke/Op whatever you wanna call it. If your not life or good its hard/ impossible to not get ran over by it. It could possibly be what is making fire so powerfull. Also its a big reason Heihachi is so fast.

I dont think the designers should be assaulted as they work hard on these sets. Everything will never be in perfect balance.
Fire is clearly the best symbol but it can be defeated by other symbols, and there will be clearly be more support for other symbols in the next set.

My top five to win worlds
1 Heihachi + spinning demon
2 Mitsarugi - Fire or Life
3 Jin+quick exit
4 ?+menutt dance
5 Hilde + wrath of heaven

Hatman
07-12-2010, 09:46 PM
King's power level was dropped dramatically with Path's much needed banning. While he's playable in that you can put him into a deck and play him, and a few throw for 4-6 damage before pumps is nice, but why not play a character with a built in damage pump (Sigfried, Ragnar come to mind quickly) that lets you use yer toon all throughout the turn, as opposed to once.
King's F has won me more games than Siegfried's E, sans PotM.

It just requires more brainpower than your average King player used and wants to use with that character.

RockStar
07-12-2010, 10:06 PM
King's F has won me more games than Siegfried's E, sans PotM.

It just requires more brainpower than your average King player used and wants to use with that character.

I agree. I lost a T4 round to PotM King, only...he never once played PotM during our match. He either didn't draw it, or didn't need it. Btw, Flinging Half Nelson should be an auto-include in any King deck; my opinion only, mind you, not gospel truth. The card is damn good, and a bigger threat than PotM in a King deck.

Omega
07-12-2010, 10:12 PM
Btw, Flinging Half Nelson should be an auto-include in any King deck; my opinion only, mind you, not gospel truth. The card is damn good, and a bigger threat than PotM in a King deck.
You have just earned 10 extra cool points.

Then again, I run my King deck as Cobra Combo, but I try to play a Clutch, Form for Half Nelson, and Mask a Twist back. But the Combo E on Nelson is STUPID.

Tader_Salad
07-13-2010, 01:30 AM
King is a beast. Path smath it was icing on the cake. After splitting for first I think I activated path MAYBE 2 times that whole day. People who hide behind the misonomer of POTM King can dillude themselves all they want. They will scoop up their cards just like everyone else.

Even with Stand Off gone, earth King still has hungry for battle, brooding, heir to the storm, regretful existance and the man behind the mask for damage pump. Sitting behind that is torn hero, journey of repentance, ka technique, undisputed ruler and memories of a nightmare. I left out the more risky ragnar cards like searching for plunder or the foundations which blow up for damage because I don't think you need them. The key is radiating damage across multiple throws, squeezing every ounce of damage out of every foundation in your staging area. Putting your eggs in a POTM basket is not a pro play with strange fashion in the format. I would rather use jaguar mask and kings form to string 8 damage throws turn 3-4.

Target X
07-13-2010, 07:21 AM
Strange fashion. The only thin making my Good Amy a contender. Also, completely OP due to the fact you can have up to 4 out.

Ryken
07-13-2010, 12:55 PM
Strange fashion. The only thin making my Good Amy a contender. Also, completely OP due to the fact you can have up to 4 out.

The ONLY thing? To the Ends of the Earth/Know when to Talk?

Bloodrunstrue
07-13-2010, 01:30 PM
hell what would make me happy, Ivy & Christie BOTH Make the top 4 just to shut people up about those decks not being viable... now you HAVE to go to Worlds and prove Christie is more than just a 1 trick pony. Grr... now i wish i could go to worlds with my Ivy build and start destroying the haters....

Oh and BRT, you're about to be Banned from Standard if ya don't stop hating on Ivy7...

N.J.

Dude, don't rub it in I loved extended D:

Can you PM me so we can talk about Ivy? I don' think she's viable at all and i've been playing with her for over a year, so far I have found that running a bog standard deck is always more consistent and vaible at winning games, also Ivy checks too many 3's. :/

Good luck with the article Vik.
Bloodrunstrue

Omega
07-13-2010, 01:53 PM
There's actually a surprising amount of momentum generation. We built a Chaos Jin deck for a local player that was based on killing with Curse of the Ancient Mariner, and it could regularly push 8+ momentum for Curse... and this was prior to set 14 (assassin's secret YUM).

No, it's not as good as momentum generation used to be. We want you to ATTACK YOUR OPPONENT. We don't want abilities that cost momentum to be totally ubiquitous like they tend to be in Legacy. WORK for your momentum dangit! Even if the momentum isn't actually gained during the end phase (I love Atoning For the Past), it should still require attacking in some form.
Constantly having to WORK FOR YOUR MOMENTUM makes certain characters (Yun-Seong, Zi Mei's actual ability) pretty crap.

And it's too late. Momentum cost abilities are ALREADY ubiquitous.

And Ascending Zephyr is crap and you know it. Or, at least, without Path draw, it is. But please, do share these secret momentum methods.

Bloodrunstrue
07-13-2010, 02:05 PM
Constantly having to WORK FOR YOUR MOMENTUM makes certain characters (Yun-Seong, Zi Mei's actual ability) pretty crap.

And it's too late. Momentum cost abilities are ALREADY ubiquitous.

And Ascending Zephyr is crap and you know it. Or, at least, without Path draw, it is. But please, do share these secret momentum methods.

Would rather Lord of the makai return to the format? If we didn't have to WORK FOR MOMENTUM then momentum generation decks, particularly those reveolving around multiple (*Cough* Zi mei) would be ridiculously stupid. Working for momentum is surely a fine price, no?

In regards to Ascending Zephry, admittedly it is much worse without POTM, nonethless it is still playable, just less so.
Just hope you can see my perspective on this
Bloodrunstrue

Hatman
07-13-2010, 02:55 PM
The ONLY thing? To the Ends of the Earth/Know when to Talk?
Work very badly against King.

VikTheSlick
07-13-2010, 03:18 PM
Constantly having to WORK FOR YOUR MOMENTUM makes certain characters (Yun-Seong, Zi Mei's actual ability) pretty crap.

And it's too late. Momentum cost abilities are ALREADY ubiquitous.

And Ascending Zephyr is crap and you know it. Or, at least, without Path draw, it is. But please, do share these secret momentum methods.

First of all, with Zi Mei basically your actual momentum doesn't matter because Fury doesn't care at all.

Ascending Zephyr is not crap, at all. Ask makingsenseofus, who ran Heihachi to second with Zephyr in Spinning Demon or Ancient Mariner and actually FTK'd one opponent due to it. It is extremely powerful early in the game and late game it can be that extra push to kill with something. Need to Destroy's best friend for sure.

And momentum gain is quite good in the format I believe, Taki's attack for one is amazing, and I love both Maniacal Laughter and Treacherous Offspring (neither of which you actually need to work for all that much, just...um...play them). I would like to see a few more cards in the right resources but if you want a momentum or multiple based deck it's really not all that hard. For example, I have Tira built of Death and I have really no problems getting to 3-4 momentum for a fully multipled Menuet Dance (or +1 even, with her enhance). I like the way that they have structured momentum gain of late, making it a more character-specific resource and giving few universal momentum generators since attacking is the idea as Tag said. But what is available is certainly not bad at all. Just my opinion...

Couple other comments on this thread, as Garrett said Fire doesn't answer itself which is perhaps the only saving grace of For the Money. And whoever compared it to equivalent to Float - no. It is way better than Float, from the diff to the block to the +2 and the "drawback" that I have only seen actually become activated two times in my life. And then in the context of standard it only gets worse. King, as the mini-discussion on him shows, is still strong as hell and was going to be even without Path due to the wonderful pumps that Earth has, POTM just made him over the top stupid. If you ask Drew, he will tell you that seeing POTM in his opening hand pretty much guaranteed a three turn clock for his opponent, and now the difference is there is no guarantee on that clock, that's all. But because of that raw power on his ability, recycling a throw and pumping it even a "modest" +4 damage or so seems quite good.

And I will say to echo Drew's point on Stand Off - it created a negative interaction with your opponent solely by being on the board, and thus was absolutely worth banning. Hata too, from experience I will say he was rather degenerate because his ability gave BOTH bonuses, not either/or, and he could also turtle very effectively behind a wall of Stand-Off and Ultimate Team (both of which ALSO pump damage!) and side in Paid To Protects for extra defense - along with his gross zone-changing. Even though I won with him I am totally 100% glad that card is gone from Standard, without reservation.

Omega
07-13-2010, 03:20 PM
Would rather Lord of the makai return to the format? If we didn't have to WORK FOR MOMENTUM then momentum generation decks, particularly those reveolving around multiple (*Cough* Zi mei) would be ridiculously stupid. Working for momentum is surely a fine price, no?

In regards to Ascending Zephry, admittedly it is much worse without POTM, nonethless it is still playable, just less so.
Just hope you can see my perspective on this
Bloodrunstrue
Lord of the Makai is too slow - you would need either multiple copies out, or multiple attacks.

But look at the large number of cards with a cost of 1 or more momentum - how are you supposed to GET it? Rekki-Maru and Mekki-Maru being but one example. Requires two momentum to use for an ability that is merely decent. It's not explicitly overcosted, but needing two momentum to use it when the momentum generation is based solely upon attacking is too much.

But you can't honestly say that something like Natural Leader, which was a 3 difficulty foundation and required an attack to be played and a card in the hand, is too much to ask for. =/


Edit: Yes, Taki's attack IS amazing. THAT is the kind of card I'm talking about, that the format needs more of.

Ryken
07-13-2010, 03:21 PM
Work very badly against King.

Really? Why? Putting a face down card in the card pool will disrupt their Combo throws. And now every deck you face will be King, sooo...yeah.

Omega
07-13-2010, 03:26 PM
Not all King decks work with the combos, and making the throw harder to block = bad idea.

B-Rad
07-13-2010, 08:20 PM
Lord of the Makai is too slow - you would need either multiple copies out, or multiple attacks.



Or you need your opponent to attack, or you can just play an attack with multiple 1 (which most base multiple attacks that see play are) and then use Makai on your multiple attack. Lord of the Makai was one of the worst thought out cards in block 3, and this coming from a guy who tries to pack as many free E's, R's, and F's as possible

RockStar
07-14-2010, 12:15 AM
Yeah, i agree about Lord of the Makai, and I LOVED using that card! It isn't slow at all, and it's stats are really off the chart crazy good!

As much as i lamented its passing, it needed to go!

Taki's asset has, i believe, Chaos as one of its symbols...Generating 2 momentum in Chaos is very easy! Very!

EDIT: Looked at that asset's ability, and the cost is Commit, Discard 1 momentum...not 2 momentum. Even easier!

Bloodrunstrue
07-14-2010, 01:40 PM
Yeah, i agree about Lord of the Makai, and I LOVED using that card! It isn't slow at all, and it's stats are really off the chart crazy good!

As much as i lamented its passing, it needed to go!

Taki's asset has, i believe, Chaos as one of its symbols...Generating 2 momentum in Chaos is very easy! Very!

EDIT: Looked at that asset's ability, and the cost is Commit, Discard 1 momentum...not 2 momentum. Even easier!

I miss Lord of the Makai already *sniff* ;'(. Also yeah, having to work for momentum is ultimately nothing but good for the game, the focus is on attacking your opponent so if too many effcient momentum gen cards were printed then playing a weenie then proceeding with an OTK-esque attack would be a much more viable strategy and this does not pormote the kind of attacking game that UFS is intended to be y'know?


I'm sorry if it feels like we've shot you down Omega, i'm just saying working for momentum is a good thing, but on the other hand I don't like the idea of momentum hate being widespread either.


anyways on to another mini-subject, when do you think the article will be roughly posted Vik? Also I may require your help in writing some card review articles as well in the future, i'll PM you if I need some help and if you're available. Thanks

Bloodrunstrue

P.S Coulda sworn Rekki+Mekki was only 1 momentum :P

Omega
07-14-2010, 08:50 PM
FFS

Did I ever say that the game needed a lot of efficient momentum generation cards? NO. But are 2 or 3 new momentum gen cards that don't provide more than 2 momentum per shot on a commit cost + discard/foundation destruction SO much to ask for? Jebus. I don't mind attacking in the game. My problem is that there are SO MANY ABILITIES that require momentum; when the only way to really GET said momentum is attacking, then WHY WOULD YOU BOTHER PLAYING THOSE CARDS IN THE FIRST PLACE?

Ex: Taki has a foundation with a commit and 1 momentum for a cost - the ability places 1 momentum in the staging area as a blank foundation. Why bother playing that card at all when it's not worth the cost? Example - Hades Destroyer has Powerful:2 for Astaroth. Why bother using it when it's much, much simpler and more efficient for Astaroth to just pump his regular attacks to hell and back? Why even print it with the Powerful rating?

Add to that the fact that there is a LOT of momentum hate in the format, and you're never going to HAVE that 1 momentum. =/

B-Rad
07-16-2010, 12:59 AM
Powerful isn't viable in this format imo. Multiple yes to an extent (nothing more than multiple 1 though unless yer Zi Mei). I will say hitting people is grand and all, given all the damage redux out and about (P2P, Valkreyja Shield, Ultimate Team, Strongest..., Shadowar, etc etc) it's actually kinda hard to hit folks nowadays.

Nekuro
07-16-2010, 05:32 AM
Hey guys, I'm thinking of writing a piece on the Standard metagame. However, uh, there isn't really any data available since the last major tournament was won with a now banned character. So, I was wondering if you all would help me out a bit. Please answer the following questions if you would:

1. What are you running in Standard right now?
2. Do you feel this deck is a competitive deck that can win Worlds, and why or why not?
3. What is your opinion of the banning of Hata, Path and Stand Off? Good or bad for the format?
4. What is your opinion of For The Money still being legal in Standard? Good or bad for the format?
5. If I asked you to name the Top 5 decks in Standard right now, you would say...?

Thanks all, appreciate the answers. I have a fairly good idea of what Standard would and should look like despite lack of play with Set 14, but I want some evidence to support my assertions as always. LMK what's up with you HAWT STANDARD TECHZORZ?

1. In standard, running Hilde when I'm out of ideas as she's been a favourite of mine for like a year, but like Mitsurugi, Siegfried, King (and I've never run him with PotM but still managed good results), Bryan Fury, Taki and Sophitia. Would like to try out all characters actually but I'm missing some of the kill cards for some symbols so that's out '^^
2. Not going to Worlds but I think that like many other characters she has a lot of potential. To make your deck win you just need the ideas, the cards, and the balls and skill to see your deck through - plus a bit of luck :D
3. Never seen Hata, but his ability in Fire did seem very powerful.
Saw PotM a few times, annoying because only very few people could get it but its abilities were somewhat stupid. Didn't play much against it though - as said, we couldn't get them.
Hated Stand Off, seeing it down meant you just couldn't kill people and couldn't do anything not to be killed. It promoted gray wars AND was hard to get. I like it better gone.
4. Powerful card but the problem's the stun. More answers to stun can get it back to playable instead of OP. And these answers are needed, so that Torn Hero can get back to being a normal good card instead of a auto-include due to meta.
5. Hum, over the top of my head (and no placement) : Paul Phoenix, Sophitia, Heihachi, King, Mitsurugi. There could be other but I haven't seen them played much.

And to continue the discussion : Powerful can be viable but needs building around. We play a lot of Old Dogs New Tricks decks here (limited to block 3-4 characters though) and these allowed us to see a few more good strategies. I myself played a Kula deck which won games with the Powerful on Curse of the Ancient Mariner, and a friend of mine used Temujin stacked on Promo to pump damage enough to kill as well. It's not too easy but can be used.

B-Rad
07-16-2010, 09:14 AM
And to continue the discussion : Powerful can be viable but needs building around. We play a lot of Old Dogs New Tricks decks here (limited to block 3-4 characters though) and these allowed us to see a few more good strategies. I myself played a Kula deck which won games with the Powerful on Curse of the Ancient Mariner, and a friend of mine used Temujin stacked on Promo to pump damage enough to kill as well. It's not too easy but can be used.

In old dog Powerful is a little better just cause there are toons that generate their own momentum (see Vega). At the moment the only viable deck that can run Curse is Jin, and even then why would you run Curse (which can get reduxed into the ground) when you can run Assassin Strike and Spinning Demon (thus forcing opponent's to burn more resources)?

SMazzurco
07-16-2010, 09:20 AM
In old dog Powerful is a little better just cause there are toons that generate their own momentum (see Vega). At the moment the only viable deck that can run Curse is Jin, and even then why would you run Curse (which can get reduxed into the ground) when you can run Assassin Strike and Spinning Demon (thus forcing opponent's to burn more resources)?

A cardpool of Shadow Flare, Shadow Flare, CotAM, CotAM says otherwise

Nekuro
07-16-2010, 09:33 AM
A cardpool of Shadow Flare, Shadow Flare, CotAM, CotAM says otherwise

Quoted for Truth.

In Chaos, I used Treacherous Offspring, Maniacal Laughter, Mishima Zaibatsu Leader, Assassin's Secret and CotAM's own ability to generate the momentum I needed. Never had any trouble getting momentum.

RockStar
07-16-2010, 11:08 AM
A cardpool of Shadow Flare, Shadow Flare, CotAM, CotAM says otherwise

For those wondering... http://forums.jascogames.com/forums/showthread.php?132-Chaos-Jin-Kazama-quot-Fun-Build-quot

B-Rad
07-16-2010, 11:16 AM
A cardpool of Shadow Flare, Shadow Flare, CotAM, CotAM says otherwise

Well played good sir... Well played :P

Omega
07-16-2010, 10:25 PM
Problem with Curse is that your opponent has to have more momentum than you for you to get any.

Same with Zaibatsu.

Hatman
07-16-2010, 10:53 PM
The way I see it, since most of the times a Powerful : X attack is at the end of a combo string, you really don't need all that much momentum. And unless you're facing King, you're really not facing a whole lot of momentum hate.

Omega
07-17-2010, 12:50 AM
Zaibatsu
Any of King's stuff
Calming the Mind
Dark Bite
From the Mouse
Her Own Agenda
Knows Her Objective

=/

I want enough momentum to put any attack with Powerful to 10 damage, not including Rhythm Halt, which is P:1 and has a base damage of 4.

So yeah, I want at least 3 momentum, but I doubt I would ever want more than 5. =/

Hatman
07-17-2010, 01:30 AM
Zaibatsu
Any of King's stuff
Calming the Mind
Dark Bite
From the Mouse
Her Own Agenda
Knows Her Objective
BTW : Only The People's Hero makes the opponent discard momentum in King's stuff. And it sucks. Calming the Mind delays momentum gain, it doesn't prevent it. Dark Bite competes with much better attacks and has to deal 4 damage on a base 4. Yes, it's a throw and 8 damage is generally easy to do, but at the same time, anyone building a deck worth their salt would find ways to combat damage pumping (I hear Strange Fashion is good), Her Own Agenda is a E Commit, and the R doesn't prevent momentum gain.

Out of the list, only Zaibatsu (which is a momentum drain which can be construed as acceleration), From the Mouse and Knows Her Objective (if momentum acceleration is worth it one day, and even then that won't be ran in massive numbers, sub-par stats with no block and no other effect than preventing momentum shenanigans? Wouldn't get past the first deck revision in most decks) should be considered playable. Again, other than King, you're likely not to face off against the massive momentum hate you claim is in Standard.

Omega
07-17-2010, 07:39 AM
Um.

Momentum hate is defined as anything that discourages or interferes with the gaining of momentum by means other than attacking.

And you're also forgetting Learned from the Best.

Hatman
07-17-2010, 10:19 AM
Um.

Momentum hate is defined as anything that discourages or interferes with the gaining of momentum by means other than attacking.

And you're also forgetting Learned from the Best.

E Commit : This attack gets -X damage (minimum 1). X equals the total amount of momentum your opponent discarded this Combat Phase.

The condition is your opponent discarding momentum. Either you toss a reversal and use the OH SO NUMEROUS~ (King, People's Hero) momentum discard, or it prevents... reversals, I guess?

Bad card is bad, the same with all the momentum hate as it's generally played to loop things (FtM) or build moar momentum (Zaibatsu). I didn't say it wasn't hate, I said it was unplayable because it's bad. Because it is.

Omega
07-17-2010, 10:53 PM
Um, no. E (4+).


Kills multiples and Yi Shan :):):):):):)tery.

ed: lolcensored

Hatman
07-18-2010, 01:11 PM
Um, no. E (4+).


Kills multiples and Yi Shan :):):):):):)tery.

ed: lolcensored

Doesn't kill multiples half as much as you think it does. Even the current zomg multiple deck, Zi Mei Fury of the Ancients, has ways to get around that card so bad, and it doesn't even involve Stun.

And if you need Learned from the Best to deal with Yi Shan, your deck needs a whole lot of help.

Birch
07-18-2010, 10:55 PM
1. What are you running in Standard right now?
Heihachi Chaos Seigfried life with poke attacks Paul fire
2. Do you feel this deck is a competitive deck that can win Worlds, and why or why not?
Heihachi is amazing and could probably do rly well. The other decks IMO are both above avergae
3. What is your opinion of the banning of Hata, Path and Stand Off? Good or bad for the format?
I like everything but Path being banned. I feel like path allowed less playable characters to compete with some of the heavy weight decks.
4. What is your opinion of For The Money still being legal in Standard? Good or bad for the format?
Keep ur eye on it is all i can say
5. If I asked you to name the Top 5 decks in Standard right now, you would say...?
1. Heihachi
2. Paul
3. Astrid
4. Jin
5. Zi Mei if built right

Da_ghetto_gamer
07-19-2010, 01:44 PM
Momentum gen really isnt as hard as people are making it out to be....every character shouldnt be able to stand under a huge stack of momentum and then discard it when they attack and want to kill...only certain symbols right now can and thats the way it should be

anyone whos every built a decent yun-seoung deck knows how much momentum you can have at a time

Hatman
07-20-2010, 11:46 PM
anyone whos every built a decent yun-seoung deck knows how much momentum you can have at a time
My Temujin2 can sit on 5 momentum at once without breaking a sweat.

Bloodrunstrue
07-21-2010, 03:51 PM
Air should always be the momentum generation symbol.

Shiros
07-22-2010, 03:25 AM
Air should always be the momentum generation symbol.

Chaos imo.

ATLDrew
07-22-2010, 09:25 AM
1. What am I playing? Legitimately every deck in the format. I am liking Lu Chen, Cassandra, Nightmare, White Crane (even though she isn't good right now), and a bunch of other fire.

2. Can they win Worlds? I think they can (except White Crane) or otherwise i wouldn't be playtesting them!

3. How do you feel about Path, Stand Off, and James? I was the absolute BIGGEST lobbyist for getting Stand Off out of the format. I hated the card, felt that it was toxic to the game, and was very difficult both to obtain and to design around. A lot of people say that it was banned because of accessibility. No it was banned because it's an overpowered card that makes fire and earth better than every other symbol in standard. Path I enjoyed playing with (might have played King for a while) but I will be the first to tell you it needed to go. That card is far too good. James was BS. Why should a character benefit you for doing what EVERY other character does normally? Horrible design even though i know that James didn't design the character with early rotation in mind. Still though, the character was overpowered and needed to go.

4. What about For the Money? Now this card is a mixed bag. It's very very powerful obviously. But for it to be game breaking you need to draw 2 on turn 1 or build your attack base with a LOT of stun. Now obviously this doesn't matter that match for fire. But if you consider the fact that half of the worlds meta is going to fire and the other half is going to be torn hero, does running a 2/5 foundation that may sometimes do absolutely nothing warrant a 4 of in a deck? FTM is great. But FTM gets hosed by anti stun which a LOT of players are going to be running. So like I said it's a mixed bag.

5. Top 5
1. Kisheri
2. Sophitia
3. Heihachi
4. 7HS Fire (Cassy or Zi Mei. Decks are very similar)
5. Lu Chen (the only hard control deck in the format)

Sketch
07-22-2010, 11:54 AM
1. What are you running in Standard right now?

Kisheri is my main deck. Planning on testing Xianghua and Hilde as well.

2. Do you feel this deck is a competitive deck that can win Worlds, and why or why not?

Kisheri? Yeah. It lost absolutely nothing with the bannings, and in fact got better with Stand Off leaving the format. It's got a lot of tools and the build I'm running doesn't die as horribly to discard hate as a lot of the Kisheris I've seen do. It has enough tricks and juice to win in other ways, and has proven to be pretty resilient at the same time. Can match up pretty well against a variety of stuff in the format, including fire. Biggest problem deck is Chaos Heihachi, as she's skinny and he'll just occasionally get those hands that smash your face in.

3. What is your opinion of the banning of Hata, Path and Stand Off? Good or bad for the format?

Very good all around, all of it needed to go if for no other reason than new players having zero access to cards that metagame-defining. Hata was far too powerful for the format; he pretty much wrecked everything he came across with no real thought on the pilot's end aside from 'just how big -can- this Hammer of the Gods get?' (ps: I love you Vik). Path was retarded and errata is generally a bad idea, Stand Off was misery personified. Just ask anyone at SAS last year.

4. What is your opinion of For The Money still being legal in Standard? Good or bad for the format?

Undecided. Decks that run it well generally break it, but it very much limits the attacks you want to play to really optimize its usage. It's pretty easy to predict an attack lineup and hold appropriate blocks when you see FTM across the table from you in fire or chaos; usually a Stun base attempting to kill with some sort of combo in Fire, or Wheel Kick/First Rite into multiple of some sort in Chaos. However, just because it's predictable doesn't make it any less backbreaking. Card is very good.

5. If I asked you to name the Top 5 decks in Standard right now, you would say...?

Too many decks out there are playable to just pin down 5. The format is -very- wide open and fire doesn't blanket-beat everything anymore, though it is at the top of the heap. Creativity and finding answers is going to be what determines top decks, not just damage pump + hammer. That said, fire will sometimes randomly blow you up on 2, and Heihachi can occasionally beast people on 1. It happens.

Stuff I like though, in no particular order:

Stun Fire (encompasses Paul, Sophitia, Cassandra, Kyoufu, etc.)
Beats Fire (encompasses Mitsurugi, Brian Fury, Jin Kazama, Fire Heihachi)
Heihachi Chaos
Astrid
Hilde
Kisheri
Xianghua
Lu Chen
King
Zi Mei (aka Fury Delivery System)

Da_ghetto_gamer
07-22-2010, 03:04 PM
Air should always be the momentum generation symbol.

Chaos is more of a momentum symbol then air is....agreed that air should have some overlap with it but air is more of a discard from the card pool symbol then anything else

Bloodrunstrue
07-25-2010, 08:38 AM
Chaos is more of a momentum symbol then air is....agreed that air should have some overlap with it but air is more of a discard from the card pool symbol then anything else

Then where does this leave the water resource symbol?

Should it establish a new identity??

Nekuro
07-25-2010, 10:05 AM
Hum... IMO, Water is a difficulty manipulation symbol as well as being reversal orientated (reversals are common with Good), it's also a combo symbol but not in the same sense as Air which has become the "Combo" symbol (note the upper- and lower-case)
Also, just to say : I'm working on a fan set which demonstrates my views, the first character (and its cards) in the set has been posted in the dedicated section.

Bloodrunstrue
07-25-2010, 03:09 PM
Hum... IMO, Water is a difficulty manipulation symbol as well as being reversal orientated (reversals are common with Good), it's also a combo symbol but not in the same sense as Air which has become the "Combo" symbol (note the upper- and lower-case)
Also, just to say : I'm working on a fan set which demonstrates my views, the first character (and its cards) in the set has been posted in the dedicated section.

I will check out your fan cards in due time :)

Bloodrunstrue

Cain Valentine
07-25-2010, 07:57 PM
1. What are you running in Standard right now?
Currently I am running tri-Hilde, Fire Mitsurugi, Chaos Gramps and Earth King
Currently working on Death Tira/Yoshi

2. Do you feel this deck is a competitive deck that can win Worlds, and why or why not?
Hilde can very much win worlds. She just has so much to bring to the table. All the damage redux in the game right now is with in her reach. She has basically every good card in the game right now to her disposal. Fire Mitsurugi is a beast! I personally feel he is the king of fire beatdown right now. i could see a strong showing of mitsurugi at gencon so there will be one top 8. As for winning.. that would take luck. Everyone knows about gramps.. need I really say more. He will win or top 4. King is a bit of a story. I never got to use path of the master so I would win with out it... However the loss of stand off dose hurt alot. King would take his time poking away with throws and dropping 4 - 6 foundations a turn which made stand off very good for him.. Now he has to pump and come out swinging a bit harder.. I feel he will top 8 at gencon you will see...

3. What is your opinion of the banning of Hata, Path and Stand Off? Good or bad for the form at?
Much like many other players I was a big lobbyist for Path getting ban. I believe the card was just a bit too redonkouls. It made so many decks just way too powerful. Personally Im glad its gone. As for hata.. It was hata need I say more? He abandoned us we should abandon him? Seriously though his card was super powerful for this format. Stand off... it could have gotten an errata to commit its self. But then again if it did commit its self it wouldn't have been stand off. The bannings were necessary and I stand behind them and Jasco.

4. What is your opinion of For The Money still being legal in Standard? Good or bad for the format?
Really for the money dont bother me. Its got a built in way to stop it but so didnt stand off. I would just watch and see what happens. Keep your eye on it.

5. If I asked you to name the Top 5 decks in Standard right now, you would say...?
1. Hilde
2. Gramps
3. Mitsu/Paul
4. Lu Chen
5. Kisheri

Da_ghetto_gamer
07-26-2010, 12:48 PM
Then where does this leave the water resource symbol?

Should it establish a new identity??

Water has always(at least in the past) been more of a looping symbols...playing the same attacks over and over again like reverse waterfall, agohani geri, etc...

IMO seal and quest for souls should have had water since thats basically what those cards do when paired together...

Also water has been the symbol to sneak foundations into play without control checks...Fluid adaptation, Kasumi Gaki, and recently Xianghua(she has water right?)

Nyobari
07-26-2010, 08:52 PM
1. Air Taki (as seen in Deck Building forum), High on Life Cassie (all High attacks)

2. I'm not totally sure Air Taki could take it all, but it's got a legit shot at Top 8. After that it's match-ups and card draw. The way she plays tends to be very awkward for other players, and if they try to be too cute with foundation combo-itis, they get shut down. However, a lot of the decks right now have more power in their character and their attacks (i.e. Fire Stun decks), and that's not nearly as effective there. Playful Slice IS the best attack in the current block set, tho. It allows for an absurdly fast aggro if the right draw happens, and the deck's attack power comes directly from it's attacks (Playful Slice + Suzaku in Legacy... oh that one hurts the head). If Air had a quality card draw card or a bit better recursion (like if Nursing a Grudge didn't blow itself up), it'd be Tier 1.

Life Cassie has some neat toys, but that's about it. It can be a bad match-up for a Fire Stun deck since it'll have anti-stun cards in it, but it relies too hard on throwing lots of attacks.

3. Path sadly needed to go. It was too easy of a kill condition. Besides, this no ends the reign of Infinity, so I can put it next to cards like Olcadan's Mentoring. James Hata was really strong with the Fire Beats, it overshadowed a lot of good Fire characters, which says a whole lot. Stand-Off was a bit of a trickier situation. If it doesn't have fire, it doesn't get banned, period. It's got the same issue as Paid to Protect. I'm a bit surprised that Paid to Protect still lives, despite both it's power and it's rarity.

4. Fire's silly amount of good stun attacks makes this card too good. If you compare it to things like Float Like a Butterfly..., it's not as good as them unless you can totally commit out your opponent's board. Stun Fire decks do this with ease, and there's still not enough anti-commit out there to really make this still not work. If you look at the game without say, Paid to Protect and For the Money, is Fire still good? Yup. Do the other symbols lose enough to cry about it? I don't think so.

5. Top 5 Decks:
1) Fire Hilde
2) Fire Stun Style - Paul, Sophitia, etc.
3) Fire Beats Style - Mitsurugi, Cassandra, Heihachi, etc.
4) Chaos Kazuya
5) Earth King Throws