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View Full Version : Rotation VS. YGO style Ban List



Seiryux02
05-15-2011, 08:58 AM
I want peoples opinion on the rotation of cards vs. YU GI Oh style ban list. I would personally rather see the ban list because I invested quite a bit of money to have my cards get rotated and they only be playable in specific formats. The people that got me started in the game actually quit because they started all the cards they bought before the original mass rotation courtesy of FFG took all of their cards. Having invested in the in the game from square one they had no real reason to continue. I guess the bigger question is are multiple formats worth it over all. Since standard is the main mode of play why not just make all sets legal. I'm not saying start printing old stuff, nut not only would it save time on reprinting cards for the new format but it would give old players incentive to play again. I think that as new sets come out old cards with obviously outdated abilities would just fall into disuse while better cards would still get used and the more unbalanced cards would find themselves on the ban list or potentially receive an errata or get limited. It could ultimately be better for the game I think, encouraging old players to step back into the game without having to start their collections over from scratch. Just my opinion. So what do y'all think?

vaporgecko
05-15-2011, 03:23 PM
Rotation is necessary for a healthy meta-game.

Accessibility to new players. - There are a couple of points here. First, the larger the library of available cards, the more intimidating it is to get into the game. Furthermore, if awesome cards are printed in sets that are no longer available, than it is nearly impossible for those new players to either play the characters they want to, or play the cards they need to be competitive. Without rotations, the player who has played the longest and has the largest library of cards will always trump the newcomer who only has the newest stuff.
Power creep. - To compensate for the above problem, the only thing you can do is power creep. New sets need to be better than old sets, forcing an unofficial rotation of cards, meaning anyone who is playing is more or less only using new product anyway. From a sales perspective, you would also want power creep so even the old players are encouraged to buy the new product.
Economy of balance decision making. - If we have a huge cardpool, we will also need an equally massive banlist. That means we'll need people dedicated to not only making sure cards get banned, but also communicating to new players which cards those are. That is a lot of book keeping for old players and potential disappointment for new players.
Economy of playtesting. - The larger the cardpool, the more playtesting there needs to be. Jasco would need to not only hire people who are intimately familiar with the entire card pool, but also employ a larger team, or playtest for a longer timeframe. And the entire cardpool would need to get tested with it because you only need to forget abou 1 card interaction before you break the meta.
Health of the company. - To maintain the health of the company, it needs to sell no product. One way to do that is to not rotate, and power creep instead, which ends up forcing an unofficial rotation anyway. Furthermore, you'll need to either take longer between releases or employ a much larger playtesting staff to make sure you aren't inadvertently breaking the game. The second way is to include rotations and do reprints of cards that you want to keep around in the card pool.
Changing up the metagame. - Never rotating out sets of cards means that you run the risk of the meta being dominated by one specific style of deck. You aren't forcing the player base to readapt and rebuild. If you keep the cardpool wide open, decks will only use the most optimal versions of cards, you'll see plenty of decks with only 1/5(or 6) foundations and very powerful throws. Or you open up all of legacy's unwelcome card interactions to standard.


TL/DR - Rotations keep the metagame fresh and accessible to new players. It also saves the company a lot of time and lets them produce new sets faster.

Nubian God
05-15-2011, 03:28 PM
Part of the problem of going the YGO route is availability and the disarray of the used cards market for UFS. If the player base and popularity is the same level, it'd be a different story. That, and the crazy power level imbalance between current and previous sets would weigh in favor of Legacy card owners. This senario, while potentially bringing back veteran players, would more than likely curb new players entering the game.

Also, UFS was designed with rotation in mind (or it was implemented early enough), so if they did decide to standarize all of the sets they would have to:
- Do extensive playtesting to find any broken or NPE cards or combos
- Reprint any power cards in future sets or as promos
- Adjust any sets they currently have in design

Which, at this time, Jasco doesn't have the manpower to do testing of that level in a reasonable amount of time. Also, seeing how they've increased the price of boosters to cover costs, they'll potentially delay releasing newer styled promos and card mechanics in favor or Legacy reprints. All of this, plus the transition period from where we are to an unlimited Standard format could result in some current players dropping the game.

Not saying that it's not possible, but for it to really work it'd need to be a long term process. As it stands, I'm in favor of the split formats as it promotes different playstyles. Granted, Extended and Legacy could use more promotion and support (I'm fresh out of ideas on how to improve that myself), but it does serve as an environment for players who enjoyed the heavier control and grey wars.

ShadowDragon
05-15-2011, 06:58 PM
It didn't help that FFG did pretty much nothing to support the legacy and extended formats. At least Jasco is- the winners of the two last year got to design their own cards. When those will be printed, I'm not sure, but it's infinitely better than the 'support' previously seen for the formats.

Nubian God
05-15-2011, 07:48 PM
It didn't help that FFG did pretty much nothing to support the legacy and extended formats. At least Jasco is- the winners of the two last year got to design their own cards. When those will be printed, I'm not sure, but it's infinitely better than the 'support' previously seen for the formats.

Most definitely. It's awesome they have a definite reward plan for the formats. Now they need to take it to the next level (to show how serious they are about it) and provide some kind of info about the specifics. Whether it's a preview of the abilities or art of some (or all, whichever) of the champ cards, or a general heads-up when they'll be presented to the winners would do wonders in regards to people taking these events more seriously and actually participating in them.

Tagrineth
05-16-2011, 12:56 AM
Forgive me if this is a little excessive but screw Yugioh-style endless ban lists and screw that game for using them and setting a completely screwy precedent for people to want because they can't let go of broken cards and can't understand basic concepts like "HELPS NEW PLAYERS SO THE GAME GROWS".


Flaw in your logic:


I think that as new sets come out old cards with obviously outdated abilities would just fall into disuse while better cards would still get used and the more unbalanced cards would find themselves on the ban list or potentially receive an errata or get limited.

Outdating cards requires making better cards, which results in unbalanced cards, which results in new cards getting banned and old cards becoming the norm again.

Try again.

Vanguard
05-16-2011, 04:57 AM
I couldn't agree more with Tagrineth.

In YGO, you might spend a little fortune for cards that could get banned a few days / weeks later.

At least when UFS Block 5 is out, you'll know you'll be able to play with those cards for the next 2 to 4 years... and then, if you really can't stop playing your Block 5 spoilers, you get to play Extended, then Legacy.

YGO ban lists are just sick, IMO.

Zardis
05-16-2011, 06:58 AM
Yeah I hate those banlists. Always something in my deck gets hit.

In yugioh you cannot have a good deck without something getting hit, so yeah, you never get to play anything as you would like to.

In my last deck I bought a Goyo Guardian in $30, now it is just sitting around in my binder doing nothing because it was banned 2 weeks later.

tannerface
05-16-2011, 10:33 PM
I agree more with vaporgecko than tagrineth mainly cause vapor went into great detail about the reasons rotation is a necessity and tag sorta just screamed at you which was really rather unnecessary. A simple no thank you would have sufficed tag.

Dillon
05-16-2011, 10:53 PM
i prefer ygo because my family is poor and i cant spend much money on this, ill end up quiting ufs once what i have now rotates into extended

RockStar
05-16-2011, 11:44 PM
i prefer ygo because my family is poor and i cant spend much money on this, ill end up quiting ufs once what i have now rotates into extended

I know the economy is tough. However, Rotation isn't until 2013, confirmed by Jason himself. I would hope that, should you still be playing this game in 2013, your financial outlook would be much improved by then.

Dillon
05-16-2011, 11:49 PM
I know the economy is tough. However, Rotation isn't until 2013, confirmed by Jason himself. I would hope that, should you still be playing this game in 2013, your financial outlook would be much improved by then.

o sweet

Seiryux02
05-17-2011, 12:09 PM
Thank you Nubian and Vapor for the thought out explantions. I'm only using the YGO list as an example because its are the most recognisable. I don't want to see cards get arbitrarily banned because because they felt like it. What I do want to see is cards that couldn't be fixed via errata to be placed there permanently (die. in a fire creator of blood runs true) again you miss the point that while there will be a lot of cards over 80% of them will simply get replaced by something shiny and new. We know full well what cards are over powered and they got left alone originally. Now there is a chance to go through and address the more overpowered cards whether be changing them over time making thing character only and so on... that said I do see and like how rotaion will be handle since it has to happen and was unaware that legacy and extend would be receiving the same support as standard. Also want to point out the th YGO ban list actually only has about 30 or 40 cards on it at any point in time they change the ban list to control the meta so they can make money. I don't agree with there tactics but I do see how exersise that kind of control can keep a bad game like YGO alive. I personally don't like the thought like the thought of the box of legacy cards I have going to waste because they can't be used in the primary game environment. JMO

Zardis
05-17-2011, 12:25 PM
Thank you Nubian and Vapor for the thought out explantions. I'm only using the YGO list as an example because its are the most recognisable. I don't want to see cards get arbitrarily banned because because they felt like it. What I do want to see is cards that couldn't be fixed via errata to be placed there permanently (die. in a fire creator of blood runs true) again you miss the point that while there will be a lot of cards over 80% of them will simply get replaced by something shiny and new. We know full well what cards are over powered and they got left alone originally. Now there is a chance to go through and address the more overpowered cards whether be changing them over time making thing character only and so on... that said I do see and like how rotaion will be handle since it has to happen and was unaware that legacy and extend would be receiving the same support as standard. Also want to point out the th YGO ban list actually only has about 30 or 40 cards on it at any point in time they change the ban list to control the meta so they can make money. I don't agree with there tactics but I do see how exersise that kind of control can keep a bad game like YGO alive. I personally don't like the thought like the thought of the box of legacy cards I have going to waste because they can't be used in the primary game environment. JMO

In that part you are mistaken. For what I have heard, the people I know here in this forum, etc I am now convinced that at least 80% of the playgroups play as much Legacy (If not more) than Standard.
Also for tournaments, there are still big Standard tournaments as well as Legacy and Extended if I am not mistaken. :)

And yes, I hate how YGO does the banlists so they can make money. They haven't limited Pot of Duality so that it still goes up in price and the remaining boxes they have go even higher in price (Higher than the current $170 per Duelist Revolution Box) and so on. I think they won't limit Trishula unless they are almost out of stock on HA04 boxes too everywhere.

At least KONAMI does a better job at banlists than those damn people from UDE.... UDE is full of thieves D: they also ruined other of my favorite games: VS System

Seiryux02
05-17-2011, 12:49 PM
I'm sure that's the case else where but for them most part we play standard in my area, that last part was jusxt my personal opinion.

Zardis
05-17-2011, 01:44 PM
I see.
Yes, I don't like that people focus on just 1 format with all UFS cards being so affordable, specially Legacy ones (Most of them)

Dillon
05-17-2011, 02:19 PM
from what ive seen the only group to play legacy is ours, the sac group
all other groups despise legacy

tannerface
05-17-2011, 02:32 PM
Well really Marcus, the only reason legacy isn't played so much is because it is in dire need of an overhaul. So many cards in legacy that need to just go. Making legacy playable would be much better than changing rotation.

Shaneth
05-17-2011, 02:50 PM
plz dnt hat mee butt i palayed yugioz snce April 2010

Umm I will start off by saying that the reason why Yugioh has so many players is because of no set rotation. If there isn't set rotation, people can spend $200 on a deck and just sit on it until something better comes out to replace stuff in the deck or something in their deck gets banned or limited. So if you are a card player, would you rather spend around the $250 ballpark area for 3 years or spend $250 every year?

Why else would Yugioh have turnouts of 800 players for a tournament?
When I was at Edison New Jersey for the Shonen Jump 75th anniversary Yugioh tournament, there was 2175 players there. I saw like 10 people I knew who played UFS. When I was in Charlotte NC for the YCS, there was 1100+ players there.
If only UFS had that many players worldwide.


You guys remember Raw Deal? When Raw Deal died, a lot of their players defected to UFS because the diversity ruling ran in their blood. However, many of those players quit after the first rotation they experienced. Raw Deal had no set rotation, which is why my locals had 80+ players every Saturday.
If only UFS had that many players at Nationals.



Set rotation is a very touchy subject. My team ALWAYS felt guilty buying a box of UFS cards because we knew that they will be unplayable the following year. However, from what I have been hearing, Jasco is supporting the Legacy format. I am not aware of what prizes they are offering, but at least they are giving more all-axxess support than FFG did.

Which brings up another subject. If a company puts out prizes that are insane, I feel as if nobody will mind the rotation. If they invest a lot per block and people spend like $300 on that block, and they go to tournaments and earn winnings that exceed their investment, they go home happy.

Unlike that one time in Worlds 2008 where Me, MickyD, and Hughsies decks combined totaled like $900 (Addes Syndicate and Blood Runs True LOL) and when we made top 4 in Team Worlds we got a 4-pack of Monster Energy Drinks. What kind of dogpoo is that??? Oh we also got the Darkstalkers Morrigan playmat but it got "delayed" because of the Olympics in China, and if that wasn't enough, our personal Morrigan mats were sent out a month after the batch to stores were sent out for the DS2 prerelease.
So we got our mats a month after everyone else. Thanks a bunch...


EDIT: for the ppl who don't know, the biggest UFS tournament ever was Worlds 2007 with 188 participants. My deck was like $70 and I spent $4.50 for the entrance fee and got a Nintendo Wii for top 4 lolololol investment returned!!!

Vanguard
05-17-2011, 02:50 PM
from what ive seen the only group to play legacy is ours, the sac group
all other groups despise legacy

We play quite a lot of Legacy here in France. Not as much as standard, but still...

Zardis
05-17-2011, 03:24 PM
Shaneth, the problem with yugioh is that people still get screwed by the banlists.

Let's take a Lightsworn deck a few years back.
You go and buy every single card for the competitive Lightsworn deck making around $800 or more, then guess what? Judgment Dragon, Lumina, Necro Gardna, Plaguespreader, Solemn Judgment and some other cards become limited then the price of the cards go down a lot with just a little resell value and make the deck almost worthless. Now you are stuck with a deck that you had better not spent $800 on.

Another perfect example for that kind of decks that resolve around 1 card and get screwed by the banlist is the Dark Strike Fighter deck. Which relied on it completely in summoning it and doing insane burn damage. Then they banned that Synchro and the ppl who spent money on that deck now are cursing YGO even in their sleep.

I can go on all day with examples lol.

In UFS we have the option of still playing certain formats. And the banlists don't screw us as much.

Shaneth
05-17-2011, 03:48 PM
Yes, that is because Yugioh puts out broken card after broken card knowing that it will get limited one day.
Tag did a great job explaining how set rotation keeps the meta fresh, and he even pointed out that problem with Yugioh.
Another problem is that Yugioh does not have playtesters. Whenever myself and Hughes explain how great UFS was to Yugioh players and we talk about how everyone was a playtester, they ALL say "whats a playtester?" LOL

However, UFS does not need to be like yugi at all.


If you remember in the history of UFS, 2008 was a very stale meta. Top 16 of Worlds was like 11 evil decks, 3 all decks, 1 void deck, and 1 fire deck. It was something like that, but no matter what, Evil had the advantage. Why? because cards like Addes Syndicate and Blood Runs True.

The problem with UFS is that the mechanics favor control. It's a fact, face it.
I will list all the major tournaments in UFS history. Only 1 tournament has been won by an Aggro deck and that was Canadian Nationals with Jacky Tang playing fireball matt kohls and that was only because KnightSpirit playing MBison f'd up a crucial turn giving jacky the opening for the fireball loop.

FFG did a horrible job when they tried to counter control. They had a hard time banning cards like Addes Syndicate and Blood Runs True. It didn't happen until after James Hata raped worlds that they finally banned Revitalize, Addes Syndicate, Higher Caliber, etc. Instead, they should not have made those cards in the first place. How did those cards get past playtesting??

They instead put out cards like Destiny to counter Blood Runs True. Around that time, they made Olcadan's Mentoring to counter control foundations. Instead that gave an opportunity for control to counter their opponents control and for their control to win the control battle. See where I'm getting at?
They put out other control cards to counter control cards.

Basically, if the problem cards were banned to begin with, there would not be a need to ban 3 other cards that came after the initial problem. That is why banlists in UFS grew so big.




Oh yeah, and there were like 10 cards on the UFS ban list that didn't even need to be there to begin with.

Enlightenment - the card doesn't even work going by the UFS rules. Why is it banned if its a dead card?

Turbo - they didn't even give this card a chance to be played in a major tournament. I bet u like only 50 players know of this card

Kasumi Gaki - ummm FTK Ukyo DID NOT EVEN TOP 16 AT WORLDS 2007 why was this banned? Oh yeah and along with the Mechanics of UFS favoring control, this also fits in. They ban all the aggro stuff so the control decks run free.

Erode the Human Soul - was broke twice, but Double Dealing is banned and Manji Ninjitsu got errata'd. Why is it still banned?

Noble Scion of an Odius Bloodline - they didn't even give this card a chance to be played in a major tournament. How do you formulate it when it has never been played?

Oh yeah Manji Ninjitsu was banned even before Manji Zasalamel was played. It was a tournament deck that was never played at a tournament. Again, how do u formulate an opinion on it when it has never been showcased at a tournament?

Kubi Ori - no deck playing this won an event except for Andrew Olexa with Vega who won worlds but the control pieces is what made the deck broken, not Kubi Ori

Strength of Purpose - banned because of the infinite loop with Taki abusing Whimsy. Yet Taki was a 6HS character and needed 4 pieces to complete the loop. Those pieces were vulnerable to cards like Ring Veteran notably. banned for no reason

To the Bone - yet another case of where you ban the aggro decks and let control run free




I should make a video... im sick of typing LOL

Dillon
05-17-2011, 03:52 PM
We play quite a lot of Legacy here in France. Not as much as standard, but still...

we prefer legacy over standard

Shaneth
05-17-2011, 03:54 PM
Sorry for double post, but another thing.

If they would make certain cards character only, that would have solved initial problems to begin with.


Bitter Rivals - Karin Only - Karin sucks, but people would play her if Bitter Rivals was only for her.

Ira Spinta - Jedah Only - if the card was Jedah only to begin with, maybe we would see Jedah being played.

Kubi Ori - Ibuki Only - couldnt be abused by Vega and other ppl. Only Ibuki, who didnt even get past top 16 at worlds 2007

To the Bone - Chun Li only - maybe people would play UFS if Chun Li was playable back then. WHICH SOLVES ANOTHER PROBLEM the chun li that came out that was banned was only banned because FFG made her so good because ppl love chun li and wanted to play her.

Strength of Purpose - Kilik Only - maybe Kilik would have 1 top under his belt

Penetrating Lunge - Raphael Only - maybe Raphael would be played. instead PL was abused by Kohls Fireball loop

Juni Spiral Arrow - Juni Only - Juni was so bad but if she had spiral arrow, you would see 6HS spiral arrow lock instead of 8HS gill spiral arrow lock. and THAT makes a HUGE difference

Blood Runs True - Rera Only - BRT should not have been made in the first place but if it was given to Rera she would be played.

Defender of the Empire - Xianghua Only - she would be the only person so abuse the Dark Hado Defender combo. AND MAYBE she would have had a top despite how bad both her characters were

Ruler of Southtown - Duke only - maybe he would have been played...



You see how making cards character only would not only keep problems down but also promote diversity within a tournament? Unlike Nationals 2009 where all teams had this lineup:
Gill Spiral Arrow Lock / Chun Li / Hanzo Kick

Dillon
05-17-2011, 05:58 PM
the yugioh ban list is bad because yugioh just wants money. they release a 200$ card then ban it the next month. if jasco put the time into thinking about what to ban and unban rather than thinking about money money money, then a YGO style ban list could easily work

Zardis
05-17-2011, 07:14 PM
Yeah well there is so much i wanna comment about but I am too lazy to quote everything so I will just write xDDD

Yes, they NEED to update those random banlists already.
Yes, they need to put "Insert Character Name" Only abilities in those stupid overpowered cards. It is better than banning them and gives more playability to the characters.

I have made stupid decks just because certain cards are "Character" Only.

I don't like 6 Hs characters, specially not in Legacy but I had to run the most decent Felicia, the one that sends everything to momentum just to playtest with Feline Spike, etc.

I honestly don't see why we don't see many "Character only" cards and abilities. We need more of those.

Grizzlegrom
05-17-2011, 07:41 PM
Sorry for double post, but another thing.

If they would make certain cards character only, that would have solved initial problems to begin with.


Bitter Rivals - Karin Only - Karin sucks, but people would play her if Bitter Rivals was only for her.

Ira Spinta - Jedah Only - if the card was Jedah only to begin with, maybe we would see Jedah being played.

Kubi Ori - Ibuki Only - couldnt be abused by Vega and other ppl. Only Ibuki, who didnt even get past top 16 at worlds 2007

To the Bone - Chun Li only - maybe people would play UFS if Chun Li was playable back then. WHICH SOLVES ANOTHER PROBLEM the chun li that came out that was banned was only banned because FFG made her so good because ppl love chun li and wanted to play her.

Strength of Purpose - Kilik Only - maybe Kilik would have 1 top under his belt

Penetrating Lunge - Raphael Only - maybe Raphael would be played. instead PL was abused by Kohls Fireball loop

Juni Spiral Arrow - Juni Only - Juni was so bad but if she had spiral arrow, you would see 6HS spiral arrow lock instead of 8HS gill spiral arrow lock. and THAT makes a HUGE difference

Blood Runs True - Rera Only - BRT should not have been made in the first place but if it was given to Rera she would be played.

Defender of the Empire - Xianghua Only - she would be the only person so abuse the Dark Hado Defender combo. AND MAYBE she would have had a top despite how bad both her characters were

Ruler of Southtown - Duke only - maybe he would have been played...



You see how making cards character only would not only keep problems down but also promote diversity within a tournament? Unlike Nationals 2009 where all teams had this lineup:
Gill Spiral Arrow Lock / Chun Li / Hanzo Kick

Just a FYI Ruler of Southtown is a Geese Card :P

I am for two different types of legacy formats one with a big banned list and one that isn't as big with no extended format because not many people enjoyed 4 point cards when they were legal so why make a format to bring just them back at least bring back 3 point too...

Tagrineth
05-17-2011, 08:05 PM
Yugioh's banlist might only have 30ish cards on it, but they also have twice that many cards limited-to-1, which wouldn't work well for UFS.

dwolf52000
05-17-2011, 08:13 PM
First: The only way Jasco is going to stay in business is by selling more cards. The more people that come into the game, the better for everyone. Those new people will not have access to things like Hop or Fruit F#@!er or any one of hundreds of cards. It is rare that I see boxes of the early stuff let alone Darkstalkers. So it is very disadvantageous for those new players to come to a table and play against the annoyance of Yoga Mastery only to come to realize that the card is out of print. Hence rotation.

Second: The only way Jasco and this game survives is by selling more cards. Thus the card pool gets bigger, which increases the chances of weird card interaction that was not tested. Could you imagine trying to playtest a card pool of 1000 or 2000 cards? By limiting the number of cards in each format, it makes the testing and balancing of the game far more realistic. Hence rotation.

Third: Problem mechanics can go away en mass. This isn't too much of a problem in UFS. We had bigger issues of the game changing from Sabretooth to FFG. Those horrible painful sets (I give the evil eye to Domination and Cutting Edge until five point) happened during that time. Remember that Blood Run True is Sabretooth's sin, not FFG. Now - I am not going to excuse FFG for epic failing at supporting a TCG, but both companies share in the blame. On a more positive note, FFG did finally start making better sets at the end before they had their mental breakdown and rotated everything out. I believe that rotation was how FFG was trying to fix the "grey wars" of the problem era. That was a bad move. Now in another game, rotating out problem mechanics was a good thing - see exhibit A: Affinity + Indestructible (whose creator should be tarred and feathered - my nice way of putting my rage at that mechanic).

So rotations can be a good thing and I believe a good way to handle UFS moving forward.

Now I have to find all these groups playing Legacy.

Zardis
05-17-2011, 08:13 PM
Yugioh's banlist might only have 30ish cards on it, but they also have twice that many cards limited-to-1, which wouldn't work well for UFS.

Exactly.

Can you imagine if you ran lets say an Amy deck and they told you:

"Oh sorry, you can only run 2 Throne Rooms because they are semi-limited and 1 Dragon Lifter because it is limited"

I might as well not run them at all @_@

SirShajir
05-18-2011, 08:03 AM
@ Shaneth
I don't agree with the huge prize support idea for the following reasons? Where is this money coming from? Jasco Games will go bankrupt after the first or Second major tournament, as they do not have the funds to that kind of endeavor. I remember you being upset with the prize support from US Nationals 09, as you were expecting more. When you spent 70 dollars on your deck, the game was new, and you did well with a cheap deck, congratz. But the company will not survive on decks that people only spend one box per set to make. There first priority is to make money. Tournaments and cool prizes help with that.

There are also seems to be there underlying tone of entitlement in your post, as if you deserve something or have earned something. In reality, you are playing a FUN game, and testing your skills in said game against other players. You are not working, you are attempting to challenge yourself, while having a good time. You want to spend 70 dollars on a deck, and expect to get a wii for your "hard earned" cash. If you are playing ccg's to make money I truly feel sorry for you. You are better off playing poker, as you will make a more money/income/cool stuff. Even top end magic players don't make more 40 grand a year playing magic (and I mean pro tour players) although my numbers maybe off (they may be up to 50 or 60 grand a year now, although I seriously doubt it). Keep in mind that they also have to travel around the world for this, while paying for thier own plane tickets and covering other costs.
If you are desperate for stuff that badly, I recommend you focus on your career/job/school or learn how to gamble professionaly as you shouldn't be playing ccg's to make profit. That is not meant to be an insult, as I am not making a judgement on your personal life, which I know nothing about. CCG's are designed to take your money, not give you money (no matter how good you are). CCG's are supposed to be a fun past time, not a method of earning income, although earning cool stuff is nice, that shouldn't be the focus of the game.

FYI, I used to be a decent magic player and have gotten really good expensive cards as forms of prize support (I've won moxen {now worth 600 dollars a piece}, played with playsets of tarmagoys when they were close to 90 dollars each, owned a playset of mana drains $150, so your cry of your mispend 200 dollars on a set doesn't bug me much when I spent that much on a playset of cards), If you think 300 dollars is alot, I personally spent close to 5-8 thousand dollars on magic during the 7 years that I played magic, and some of my team mates had decks that were worth upwards of 10,000 dollars, while their collections were close to 20,000 dollars. And that is the game that is doing the best. So when you compare that to the prize support you are asking of Jasco Games, I feel that you are being unreasonable.

vaporgecko
05-18-2011, 11:53 AM
I agree more with vaporgecko than tagrineth mainly cause vapor went into great detail about the reasons rotation is a necessity and tag sorta just screamed at you which was really rather unnecessary. A simple no thank you would have sufficed tag.

Woo! Validation!

I still won't see myself playing Legacy. I really don't enjoy the pace of the format, but I am enthusiastic about it getting some awesome support for the people who do love it. If this game goes on to get a 2-4 year rotation block anyway, that is still a HECK of a long time to play with your cards, and I think the investment is well worth it. I've spent maybe $400 on Red Horizon now, and have already reaped more than 80 hours of gameplay since it's release, and with some totally awesome people. That's an investment well spent I think.

I don't think there needs to be a massive prize support option though. I remember Spoils coming out, where the only thing it had going was fantastic prizes, and that thing capsized faster than a torpedo'ed canoe. I think that promoting a healthy community, having some really cool set design and meta-game are fantastic for any game. I do think Jasco is doing a great job with prizes though. The concept of the PTC is great, and the top prize for it is fantastic, and self serving because it promotes a strong community and commitment to the game. I think the PTC will be something that really marks the game industry in the next couple of years (this year it's just sorta trying on training wheels after all). My only major complaint is the lack of fresh promo support. I'd love it if we got 4-6 different promos every month instead of 1 or 2 ever monthish that get introduced. I really liked STG/FFGs format of introduce 4 promos every month, and they would stay in the available pool for three months before rotating out, meaning you'll have access to one of any 12 promos at any given tournament.

Wild Party Hat
05-18-2011, 12:19 PM
People play standard because they like the new environment and the promise of newer, flashier cards.

People play legacy because they want to run 4x Blood Runs True and Akuma6.

Let's not turn this into a legacy vs. standard thread. The fact remains that UFS will not ever be a yugioh style ban list game. With such a small player base, Jasco can't afford to have new players turned off when they play their starter deck against a competetive legacy deck. Oh what's that? You Will Not Escape? Blood Runs True? What do those do? Oh... This game sucks.

tannerface
05-18-2011, 02:48 PM
Actually, I play legacy to play yoshimitsu+brt. Akuma sucks I would rather play Andrew Olexa. And I play extended to play VictorE.

Shaneth
05-18-2011, 02:58 PM
Shajir, I dunno if you know, but Jasco is capable of making money out of thin air.

Remember Nationals 2009 and Worlds 2009? FFG gave out binders that had 1 of every card in the set.
Those binders costed them a minmum of $5 to make, and to the players, they were worth anywhere from $100 to $250 depending on what binder it was.

If FFG wasnt so lame and gave us binders full of cards that were already rotated, I'm sure players would have been happier.

NJBrock22
05-18-2011, 07:43 PM
while i agree with Shane that some errata may be necessary especially in Extended and Legacy... until we have a full living FAQ for the game so everyone knows the errata's it'll be a headache to keep up with, hell look at Raw Deal where they didn't even start issuing errata to cards until AFTER it first died and was picked up by TCO to be run by the fan base so eh... now Rotation is necessary to the health of the game as stated though i would like a more SLOWER Rotation that way guarenteeing every set the same amt of playtime in the game, for example say we have 8 sets in standard and then 9th set hits, set 1 should rotate, then set 2 once set 10 hits and so on and so forth, i know that brings a lot of strain upon some playtesters and will keep some cards around longer than some people would like but eh... thats why i'm not in charge...

N.J.

Shaneth
05-18-2011, 08:25 PM
My point wasnt really intended to focus attention on errata. It was to clarify what should have been done in the first place to prevent really really good cards from being abused by other characters. Limiting those power cards to certain characters would not only have prevented 10+ cards from being on the ban list but it would have promoted diversity in EVERY tournament.

And if there isn't a plethora of problem cards in the format (because every character is unique), why for rotate?


The problem mainly lies within playtesting. From what I remember back in 2007-2008, playtesters told Dave that some cards were definitely broken and should be changed, but Dave said that they were fine, thus releasing them DESPITE WHAT THE PLAYTESTERS SAID and creating problems. So it's not the playtesters fault for not pointing it out, but the lead designers fault for ignoring the playtesters. Your playtesters are doing their job for a reason, so why are you ignoring them?

But I am (hopefully) sure that problem has been dissolved by now.

RockStar
05-18-2011, 08:32 PM
The problem mainly lies within playtesting. From what I remember back in 2007-2008, playtesters told Dave that some cards were definitely broken and should be changed, but Dave said that they were fine, thus releasing them DESPITE WHAT THE PLAYTESTERS SAID and creating problems. So it's not the playtesters fault for not pointing it out, but the lead designers fault for ignoring the playtesters. Your playtesters are doing their job for a reason, so why are you ignoring them?

But I am (hopefully) sure that problem has been dissolved by now.

If Red Horizon is any sort of indicator, it certainly appears that the Lead Designer (whomever that is, i honestly don't know) and the Play Testers are, in fact, on the same page (finally), and communicating with one another.

In the entire time I've been playing UFS (since Dark Path), this is the healthiest the game has ever been. Period.

Tagrineth
05-19-2011, 12:59 AM
The problem mainly lies within playtesting. From what I remember back in 2007-2008, playtesters told Dave that some cards were definitely broken and should be changed, but Dave said that they were fine, thus releasing them DESPITE WHAT THE PLAYTESTERS SAID and creating problems. So it's not the playtesters fault for not pointing it out, but the lead designers fault for ignoring the playtesters. Your playtesters are doing their job for a reason, so why are you ignoring them?

I think if I look for it I might still have the Scout .pdf from Cutting Edge that had Rejection as a 4/4 with Breaker:1 and a +2 or +3 block. In playtesting it somewhat flew under the radar since it was not entirely reliable to pass defensively and hurt your CC curve.

Why it was changed to a 3/5 with Breaker+2 is totally beyond anyone's comprehension. Last-minute changes and ignorance of the playtesters' opinions was a HUGE issue for Sabertooth.

Then there was also the fact that they vehemently refused to ban/errata cards until it the damage was already done - we had at least two players quit during the 3-month reign of OAM->Rolling Storm. That combo should not have been allowed to remain in the format at all...

Shinguyi
05-19-2011, 09:10 AM
...At least KONAMI does a better job at banlists than those damn people from UDE.... UDE is full of thieves D: they also ruined other of my favorite games: VS System

You are aware that UDE is not the rightful holder of YuGiOh in the West since years ago right? Its another Konami branch.

But I agree with the more Character Only clause... we really could use more of those to balance out a lot of things...

Zardis
05-19-2011, 09:13 AM
You are aware that UDE is not the rightful holder of YuGiOh in the West since years ago right? Its another Konami branch.

I know. That's why I say UDE is full of thieves. They were in court because they were making (Buying or something like that) Korean Yugioh cards in english and selling them to people as cards made for the TCG. And a lot of other problems.

In VS System they made one big tournaments like those in magic with thousands of dollars for the winners and they never paid the winners anything. So obviously the game immediately died.

Shinguyi
05-19-2011, 09:21 AM
I know. That's why I say UDE is full of thieves. They were in court because they were making (Buying or something like that) Korean Yugioh cards in english and selling them to people as cards made for the TCG. And a lot of other problems.

In VS System they made one big tournaments like those in magic with thousands of dollars for the winners and they never paid the winners anything. So obviously the game immediately died.

Ah, alright. Making sure hehe.

Wild Party Hat
05-19-2011, 01:02 PM
Actually, I play legacy to play yoshimitsu+brt. Akuma sucks I would rather play Andrew Olexa. And I play extended to play VictorE.

Akuma sucks..? Akuma6 is one of the top 3 or so characters in all of legacy. Free control check hacks and tap them out on their turn? yeah.

tannerface
05-19-2011, 07:15 PM
Akuma sucks..? Akuma6 is one of the top 3 or so characters in all of legacy. Free control check hacks and tap them out on their turn? yeah.

I stand by what I say. Akuma sucks and Andrew Olexa is better.

Seiryux02
05-19-2011, 09:07 PM
I would never ask UFS to adopt the practices of Konami and more importantly UDE. Thats not what I had in mind when I suggested the YGO style list. What I would like to to see is an active over hall of the UFS ban list. YGO has 2 formats, traditional and advanced. For those who don't know In traditional every card is legal if only limited to one or to per deck. Advanced is more what I had in mind for UFS, a format that had ALlL of the most broken cards banned. In the case of UFS there would be no need I think UFS could do something like that where all the card except for the OBVIOUS BROKEN cards like BRT and You will not escape aren't legal, because while there were a lot of card that were rather OP there was still weren't or even more so weren't really viable at the time that might need a second look now. With proper playtesting and management Jasco could reintroduce the old cards and restore the power of each of the symbols in one move. As far as the those really good card that new players wouldn't have access to initially, I say Jasco takes yet another play from the YGO play book and starts doing reprint set if its within their power to do so. As a matter of fact i think MTG does this as well, I don't know much about that game but I believe that's what they do when they release a core set. Someone please correct me if I'm wrong. Not everything was broken in Legacy or extended and I think UFS players exercise a bit more common sense when it comes to what is truly OP and what is balanced. It would be a huge ind ever on the part of Jasco but i truly feel they would benefit because right now they need players like nobodies business and who better then people who already know the game. new players will come as the game returns to prominence and being able to tell players that they can play as characters from major titles is still a solid selling point I think. Again I know we can tell them that, but the bulk of UFS players play standard and generally don't bother with legacy or extended. I don't want Jasco to try and become the next Konami because Jasco give a damn about the players and Konami doesn't from what I've seen. Oh, yeah and you don't have to make better cards in order for players to decide that a card is useful. And if nothing else new players can always trade with old players, I think that the point of the community.

Zardis
05-19-2011, 09:16 PM
I am just gonna make a little comment cuz I am so freaking sleepy I might write something dumb LOL

we already have a banlist. What they need to do is just get rid of the BRT on Legacy as well. Just as they did with Rejection. Why is Rejection banned in both formats and not BRT? I have never faced such card in a game but I would totally hate to do so.

I just want UFS to go on and I like the formats like Legacy Extended and Standard.

I honestly like how it is now. :)

Shaneth
05-19-2011, 09:53 PM
I stand by what I say. Akuma sucks and Andrew Olexa is better.

Yes yes I totally agree with Tanner.

Yo remember when you-know-who said that Akuma was better than Andrew Olexa in every way shape and form and then first round at the MWCC Andrew Olexa trashed his Akuma with his Andrew Olexa deck in the first round? 2-0 baby all day

It was pretty clutch.

vaporgecko
05-19-2011, 11:43 PM
I'm actually a fan of character-only abilities being on over-all decent cards, rather than straight up character-only cards. I really like how cards like Bloody Funeral, Descending Dragon Spear, Fury of the Ancients, and (arguably it has a character-only ability) Fusion Bane aren't just absolutely dead cards in your collection if you don't happen to like the characters.

tannerface
05-20-2011, 05:33 AM
I thought character only cards were great. I thought that they gave characters more diversity and flavor as well as (for the most part) a kill condition, if they didn't like what was available to them on their symbols.

Vanguard
05-20-2011, 07:17 AM
As a matter of fact i think MTG does this as well, I don't know much about that game but I believe that's what they do when they release a core set.

MTG does have "core sets" which are constituted of about two-third reprints and one-third new cards, but there is still a yearly rotation for standard format... MTG's example pretty much defeats what point you were trying to make about Yu-Gi-Oh's "no rotation" concept.


I say Jasco takes yet another play from the YGO play book and starts doing reprint set if its within their power to do so.

Since the only licence Jasco retained from FFG days is Shadowar (so, ATM, they have Shadowar and Red Horizon), I think it is safe to assume that it is NOT in their power to do such reprints.

So, in addition of being a terrible idea (because of the staleness it creates, of power creep and other things that were discussed above), making all Legacy cards legal in Standard, with a huge Yu-Gi-Oh-style ban list, just seems impossible to implement.

Shaneth
05-20-2011, 08:23 AM
So, in addition of being a terrible idea (because of the staleness it creates, of power creep and other things that were discussed above), making all Legacy cards legal in Standard, with a huge Yu-Gi-Oh-style ban list, just seems impossible to implement.

The problem is that it is too late.

Let's rewind time. And solve all the issues I mentioned in the previous two pages. And since everything is so balanced out, there would be no need to rotate. And if problem cards like BRT were leaked thru playtesting, act swiftly to ban it.

I will bet mad bank that this game would have 10x more players than it does now. And that means 10x more support for the game.

Da_ghetto_gamer
05-20-2011, 01:45 PM
Couldnt they still reprint cards that have the same ability and same name just not the same pictures and such? I would love to see certain cards come back from time to time... were not talkin like 100 card reprint sets or full sets like yu-gi-oh but like 10 or 15 cards a set so that way our old cards can still be used at a later date for all those people who dont like damaging thier mind trying to play legacy

Zardis
05-20-2011, 01:52 PM
Couldnt they still reprint cards that have the same ability and same name just not the same pictures and such? I would love to see certain cards come back from time to time... were not talkin like 100 card reprint sets or full sets like yu-gi-oh but like 10 or 15 cards a set so that way our old cards can still be used at a later date for all those people who dont like damaging thier mind trying to play legacy

That is actually not a bad idea.

For example: Ponder and Preordain in MTG

They have similar effects but they are not the same anyway.

Wild Party Hat
05-20-2011, 02:00 PM
That is actually not a bad idea.

For example: Ponder and Preordain in MTG

They have similar effects but they are not the same anyway.

I always feel victorious when someone uses preordain and puts the cards right back on top in the same order.

Zardis
05-20-2011, 03:11 PM
I always feel victorious when someone uses preordain and puts the cards right back on top in the same order.

hahaha I never do that. I always send at least 1 to bottom. For the sake of surprise :)

Vanguard
05-20-2011, 06:05 PM
Couldnt they still reprint cards that have the same ability and same name just not the same pictures and such? I would love to see certain cards come back from time to time... were not talkin like 100 card reprint sets or full sets like yu-gi-oh but like 10 or 15 cards a set so that way our old cards can still be used at a later date for all those people who dont like damaging thier mind trying to play legacy

Why cling to old cards and old play styles, why not welcome change with a healthy rotation every 2.5 - 3 years ?

NJBrock22
05-20-2011, 06:12 PM
because there are still some who love the Magic style of reprinting old tried and true cards, which i'd be for re-printing 10-15 cards/base set from Legacy or Extended, but no more than that.

N.J.

Tagrineth
05-20-2011, 09:54 PM
There's one other problem with the idea of a massive ban list, which is simply getting everyone to agree upon which cards need to be banned and which don't.

For example, I'd argue for a much larger banlist than most, including cards like Overhand Throw and Strike Heads. I'm sure many people would DISagree with me on Othrow being banworthy, but the problem there is that if Othrow is legal, it remains a 100% auto-include on all three of its symbols, unless they print enough better attacks to replace it.

Honestly, in a global format, unless a LOT of attacks got banned, you'd rarely see any attacks from five-point sets in any decks. Maybe the occasional generically good attack like Midnight Launcher... but only if you don't own Shoulder Rushes, etc.

Even Combo would probably just disappear, since most of the benefits you can get from Combos can probably be replicated more easily from various Legacy cards' effects, and the sheer amount of BS you can do to disrupt your opponent in Legacy would completely obliterate any chance of getting any Combos off anyway.

For such a format to work, we'd have to see a sharp power leap in the next Jasco set, which would probably start causing serious issues again since we already saw TWICE now what happens when non-Control cards get too strong (sets 4/5 and 13 caused the format to hyper-accelerate), and even moreso how awful the format becomes when Control cards become too strong (honestly - making sets 1, 3, 8, and 9 legal again would flat-out kill the game unless WAY too many cards got banned... and again, there'd be tons of disagreements on exactly what would be banworthy).

I really feel that the sheer amount of cards that would need banning would very much defeat the purpose of trying to eliminate rotation - look how many cards are banned in Extended now! And the format is still mostly the same lockdown format it was before anyway. That's what we'd be facing just ignoring the 5-point rotation and going with 4-point. Going all the way back to set 1 would be a horrible idea.

kilik850
06-02-2011, 01:18 PM
There's also other problems with doing a ban list and for one I'm quoting MIB 2: Old, Busted Hotness. All it would take is that one ingenious mind to think really hard and say "You know, I think New Card X and Old Card Y form Infinite Loop Of Damage Z!" And they'd play that out till it got banned. Then same said mind would pick up 2 other cards and do the same thing over and over again, thus creating old busted hotness. Then there's the oh so infinite possibilities of character underlaying. Could you imagine the new Promo Kilik with :Kilik: under it?! And do we really even want to get back to a point when people can use old Dhalsim with the current format's cards?! Let alone Ms. Cleo/Rose. But it would also lead to some very sad matchups for some people. Autoscoop conditions even. Could you imagine an Algol or an Ivy player sitting down across the table from a ::Voldo::?! Bad times ahead!

guitalex2010
06-02-2011, 01:35 PM
Rotation is healthier than bans.

I remember during that GINORMOUS WAIT between ShadoWar/Tower of Souls and Tekken. What was that, like 7 months? I decided to take up YuGiOh. It was somewhat fun, but mostly unbalanced. Then when I FINALLY decided which deck I wanted to build, thanks to being able to playtest them in the DS game, the one card that made it all work was limited to 2: Lonefire Blossom.

I then put down the YGO cards and never looked back.

If you make a YGO kind of ban list, you risk the fact that with more sets, seemingly useless cards (let me mention here Fei Long's Forward Kick) suddenly become more stupid (Bitter Rivals) the more and more sets are released (Hanzo***, Chester's Backing, Giradot's Leadership, Olcadan's Mentoring, Blood Runs True).

Sorry for bringing back painful memories, everyone.