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View Full Version : Collecting Opinions on Things (Legacy, Extended, and yes Standard too!)



dutpotd
08-09-2011, 01:23 PM
There is a lot of post-gencon clutter on the boards, which isn't surprising considering it is one of the bigger annual events and is oft eye-opening to players that don't get to experience the strongest/newest/different play styles and techniques on a regular basis.

I'd like to use this thread to collect your opinions on the 3 formats (if anyone has a problem with teams it probably falls under standard, but feel free to post something here about teams if you don't think it does).

Legacy - Were the bannings enough? Does this format still cater to things that are arguably degenerative and still far to hard to deal with? List the cards that you think need to be addressed to make the format better.

Extended - Should we just scrap this format? Is it possible to address the style of play in Extended with bannings? If so list the cards you think need to be addressed to make the format better.

Standard - List the cards that you think need to be addressed to make the format better. Are there any concerns you would like to raise surronding the promo card releases, the relative increase in power level of cards as they and new sets are released, etc.?

From the replies in this thread I will collate the popular opinions and send them to Jason or others as appropriate. Please note that opinions are often wrong and that just because everyone hates one thing it doesn't mean that the decision makers will necessarily agree. In that light, see this thread as a place to air your opinions for what they are and stop littering other threads with them the best you can.

On that note, consider this an informal request to the mods of the forums to start up a Gencon 2011 Forum area and move all of the shoutouts/reports/etc. to their correct place and time.

- Garett

dutpotd
08-09-2011, 01:47 PM
I may be the first one replying to my own thread, but I wouldn't want to unfairly ask others to post their opinions and withold my own.

Legacy. A lot is better but there are still serious issues when Collecting Data remains your best defense (if used properly, a tired Keenan still outwits it) against the top Legacy decks. The cards I am most concerned about are - Reverse Waterfall, Absurd Strength, and Soul Power. The latter in combination with cards without enhance phases will be a problem once someone refines the deck that Sketch so thankfully created for this year's event.

Extended. I'm an advocate of an in between format, but I think it is too complicated to maintain and without a serious overhaul it does lend itself to long, often degenerative, playing experiences. If we were to overhaul the format and put some time rules in play the cards that I think need to be addressed are - Akuma, Sardine Special, Felicia, and the Gorgeous Team.

Standard. Although relatively healthy, there are some cards that will continue to cause problems if not addressed, and immeidately. Piercing Howl NEEDS an errata. Ideally, my action card will assist in balancing out the other concerns I have with cards in the meta, namely repetitive uses of strong abilities - see Jon Herr, Eva, Cassandra, Mitsurugi, Heiachi, Omar, etc. My only other concern with this format is the Paul Bittner character but I am not experienced enough to elaborate on it at this point in time.

Hatman
08-09-2011, 01:57 PM
6HS cards aren't nearly broken enough to matter in a competitive environment, across all formats.

dutpotd
08-09-2011, 02:01 PM
6HS cards aren't nearly broken enough to matter in a competitive environment, across all formats.

Agreed to some extent. Reese, King, Astrid (what I ran), Heiachi, Jin, and more are competitive enough in standard this I can gaurantee. For more information see the fact that my team was Omar, Mitsu, and King and we really shouldn't have lost to any other team out there this weekend barring some bad luck and some mis plays.

So my answer is that in Standard they (6hs) are competitive enough, but just slightly outdone by 7hs characters that are also broken or sport equally strong abilities - Eva, Cassy, Herr, Bittner, etc.

In extended/legacy the only 6HS or lower character that are relevant are those that draw cards with their character abilities - see Alex, Hugo, etc.

- Garett

Shaneth
08-09-2011, 02:12 PM
Yes, scrap extended.

Yeah I did get 2nd and I'm not salty at all about not winning, but even if I won, I would have been all for scrapping extended anyways.


That format is so garbage. There is a huge power difference between cards with 4-point and cards with 5-point. Ever since post Nationals/Worlds 2009, they banned/errata'd all the cards that could kill such as Fei Long's Forward Kick, Feline Spike, Ira Spinta, Spiral Arrow, Darkness Blade, etc, and while those kill cards are banned, there is nothing to kill with, besides wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall and attack for game.

You get my drift :D

dutpotd
08-09-2011, 02:14 PM
Yes, scrap extended.

Yeah I did get 2nd and I'm not salty at all about not winning, but even if I won, I would have been all for scrapping extended anyways.


I'm with you Shane, scrap it or revise it A LOT.

Grizzlegrom
08-09-2011, 02:15 PM
Yes, scrap extended.

Yeah I did get 2nd and I'm not salty at all about not winning, but even if I won, I would have been all for scrapping extended anyways.


That format is so garbage. There is a huge power difference between cards with 4-point and cards with 5-point. Ever since post Nationals/Worlds 2009, they banned/errata'd all the cards that could kill such as Fei Long's Forward Kick, Feline Spike, Ira Spinta, Spiral Arrow, Darkness Blade, etc, and while those kill cards are banned, there is nothing to kill with, besides wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall wall and attack for game.

You get my drift :D

I agree without feline spike and ira spinta the format isn't really fun for me anymore building foundations for 15 turns isn't all that good maybe come back to this when it's just 4-5 point in the distant future

RockStar
08-09-2011, 02:30 PM
Sadly, i cannot comment on Legacy or Extended, as i've not competed in either format for a couple years now, and i intentionally refrain from doing so, as I'm well aware of how degenerate those Formats were BEFORE the recent bans and erratas.

Standard, however, i'm all shiny about and compete regularly with fairly good success. So...

I agree that recent 6 HS characters have trended toward a definitive increase in their abilities in order to be able to compete with their 7 HS counter parts. And, i have to agree that i think an expertly built 6 HS character has the potential to Top 8 in any Major event. However, I'm not convinced that any 6 HS character is truly competing for anything other than 2nd place at this point in time. 7 HS characters just play so much faster than any 6 HS character, it really gives them a definitive edge. I think 6 HS characters need to do one of two things in order to have a real shot at bringing home the gold in Major competition:

1) Have abilities that 'cheat' their HS. King, and the new Promo Nehtali are prime examples of this. They get to play attacks for FREE. 2.Nehtali, in particular, is very winsome in that she also searches once per turn for an attack she can play for FREE. Veritably, she becomes a 7+ HS character with 27 vit, and this is a GREAT thing, imo.

2) Have abilities that seriously enhance any attack played, so that every attack is a veritable threat. Mitsu's abilities are the perfect example of this, and if we recall, Life Mitsu almost handed Sean Toysa the title of National Champion last November; all three of those matches vs Shoemakers Fire Zi were blazingly fast nail-biters that could've gone either way. The point is, Mitsu's abilities to vastly increase both speed and damage of his attacks is where i believe the sweet-spot for 6HS needs to be.

With regards to some of the 7 HS characters that you've named...

Eva... I honestly do NOT believe she is a problem. She is incredibly strong, to be certain, but i don't believe she's broken. She certainly doesn't cheat in any of her abilities, certainly not like...

Jon Herr... he cheats. Period. His ability to peek at the top card of his deck, and rig his next CC, particularly during his build phase, IS broken. And, even tho i didn't make it to Gen Con, i built an All J Herr deck with Reese support two weeks before Worlds, and it's yet to be beaten by any deck in my local Meta - it WOULD"VE been my deck of choice, it's that strong. Also, we need to take into account with Jon Herr, his abilities were created and approved of in a much different Meta/play-environment. His abilities had to be strong and interesting enough to warrant them being printed on a Champion's card in a Meta that was largely defined by broken design-philosophy. All this to say, i'm not surprised at how OP a properly built J Herr deck can be, and you shouldn't be either. That said, i'm not a fan of nerfing or banning Champion's cards. The problem is, when we do, we can over-react and make the errata so harsh, that said character become veritably un-playable (anyone remember how severe Matt Kohls errata was?).

Cassy... She's fast, and she's furious. I'm surprised she's not an Asian racer (/sarcasm). I played against Olexa's Life Cassy build at Nats (teams event), and lost. Yet, I didn't feel like she was over-powered. I just think she's strong.

So, my point: I don't think any of these 7 HS characters warrant an errata or ban as of this moment. I just think that 6 HS characters need to do moar in order to have an equal shot at taking 1st place at Nats or Worlds.

My 2 Cents,
RockStar

Cetonis
08-09-2011, 02:38 PM
Legacy - I think we all accept that this will always be a format run by degenerate decks on both ends of the spectrum, so as long as there isn't anything noticably more busted than the rest of the field it'll do just fine. In that regard I think the current format is pretty close - I definitely feel Reverse Waterfall can just go, and then there are maybe two or three more cards to look at but that's it. In regards to the discard-ness, people will probably start playing more anti-discard now that we've all been reminded how unfair it can get, and there's no real way to ban all of the busted discard anyway so might as well leave it alone.

Extended - I am in favor of finding a solid way to do drafts/limited and replacing Extended with that. Most of the format's best attacks are in standard anyway, so by the time you ban/errata everything that would need to be dealt with to make the format fun you'd probably just wind up with Standard plus some foundations which doesn't feel worth it to me. Especially when Limited ought to be feasible given a little effort. I talked about this at gencon, but for the sake of having it up here my favorite idea is to have players pick their characters from a pool after drafting, similar to the way MTG does with lands, so that during the draft you can sort of move into and out of character plans the same way MTG players do with the five colors.

Standard - I hate power level errata so I am opposed to hitting Howl for that reason alone, at least until it actually demonstrates something OP - as cheap as it might look and feel at first glance, it doesn't actually amount to anything that much more powerful than what other top attacks can do when paired with some choice foundations. Also note that only one of the top eight decks at worlds ran it, and I don't know if it was even a four-of. That aside, I think Standard is in a pretty good place. I would hold off on thinking about taking action on Eva until RH02 is out, as perhaps some of the control cards in there will help stave off her assault better. I think if anything were to be done to take Eva down a peg HC would have to be the target; if people decide Eva is "over the top" power level wise, (I'm unsure of that myself) I think the fact that blocking is almost unviable is what puts her there.

dutpotd
08-09-2011, 02:40 PM
So, my point: I don't think any of these 7 HS characters warrant an errata or ban as of this moment. I just think that 6 HS characters need to do moar in order to have an equal shot at taking 1st place at Nats or Worlds.

My 2 Cents,
RockStar

100 percent agree. I also think Standard is doing a good job of making 6hs more competitive on average relative to the past.

Shaneth
08-09-2011, 02:42 PM
I'm with you Shane, scrap it or revise it A LOT.

I don't think revising Extended would be a viable option.

It would be too much effort put into it, and there are so many variables to consider Extended having a positive outcome after revision. Sure you can't be certain until you try, but the main point is that the players have already agreed that 3 major formats in just 1 weekend is just too much.

However, the tournaments were run very lax, and that killed my own and many others chances of chilling with each other, going to the dealer hall to make tokens with our friends, hitting up the arcade in the mall, taking pictures with cosplayers, and every other thing that me and Hughes wanted to do at Gencon. Saying that teams top 8 started at 8am but didnt start until 10:30am really pissed me and Hughes off. It was like we were punished for showing up on time. And it was ridiculous how we were the first team to hand in our decklists but the last team to get them checked. Again, we were punished for being on time.

But getting events on time is another topic, and maybe should relate on how staff should not be allowed to play in events because they should have been helping organize the tournament better.


Everyone was so exhausted playing literally 56 hours of cards (includes waiting for matches to finish). Everyone was so tired of it. Matt Maffei even commented on how he was told I was a hyper dude, and how he was surprised at how composed I was at the event. I blame this on 4 hours of sleep each night. And that hot chick handing out 5hr energy shots didnt help because those things only work if you believe in them, just like diet pillz.

dutpotd
08-09-2011, 02:44 PM
Extended - I am in favor of finding a solid way to do drafts/limited and replacing Extended with that.

I really like this idea. I love drafting/sealed and if it was a truly supported format I would die and go to heaven.

Also, never gonna agree with you on Piercing Howl. If you want me to change your mind just ask me to build a deck with it in it.

Eva is fine, there needs to be more appropriate response negation coming up, to stave off HC a bit, that is all.

Hatman
08-09-2011, 02:46 PM
Eva is fine, there needs to be more appropriate response negation coming up, to stave off HC a bit, that is all.
The problem with the 7HS characters right now isn't brokenness. It's that they're solid. Extremely so.

A solid 7HS character > A broken unbanned 6HS character most of the time.

dutpotd
08-09-2011, 02:47 PM
I don't think revising Extended would be a viable option.


And maybe you are right.

dutpotd
08-09-2011, 02:47 PM
The problem with the 7HS characters right now isn't brokenness. It's that they're solid. Extremely so.

A solid 7HS character > A broken unbanned 6HS character most of the time.

Agreed, that is what I said, the 7hs with great abilities are what make the 6hs with great abilities not equal. You could all man up and run characters without abilities like I do with Gill... :)

Hatman
08-09-2011, 02:54 PM
Agreed, that is what I said, the 7hs with great abilities are what make the 6hs with great abilities not equal. You could all man up and run characters without abilities like I do with Gill... :)
Gill,s ability is being 8HS.

Shaneth
08-09-2011, 02:55 PM
It is why all Morathi's who playing in standard did so well.

8HS dominates the game.

And diversity masked that problem. Because you did not see top 4 consist of 3 morathis :) if it would have panned out that way

dutpotd
08-09-2011, 03:03 PM
It is why all Morathi's who playing in standard did so well.

8HS dominates the game.

And diversity masked that problem. Because you did not see top 4 consist of 3 morathis :) if it would have panned out that way

Don't look at me, I sided into Morathi.

dutpotd
08-09-2011, 03:03 PM
Gill,s ability is being 8HS.

Not when your opponent is Alex.

Skull_Knight
08-09-2011, 03:09 PM
Legacy- Pretty much what everyone said. Ban Waterfall and a couple other problem cards that give issues to alot of decks/playstyles. Honestly i am fine with Legacy right now because both aggro and wall can compete.

Extended- I REALLLLLY want this format to see some sweeping changes. I like the idea of this format because I can fanboy over alot of characters that just aren't cut for legacy and not legal in standard, however it is VERY imbalanced right now. The way the format is played right now it greatly punishes you for attacking even once, which makes for long drawn out game of building negation/disruption cards to counter the opponent's counter/disruption cards so that your 1 attack that you are playing in the deck can go through for game. I think if Extended gets a makeover like Legacy got i'm sure it will be 10000000 times better than what it is right now.

Standard- VERY good right now, especially with the new cards coming out. Garett's card opens up ALOT of tricks now and the new AOP are going to be fun to mess with. Really want some more 6hs characters that are strong to come out to play with in the new set. Really all i can say about the format. :):):):) MITSURUGI!!!

Grizzlegrom
08-09-2011, 03:53 PM
Here is my opinion on Legacy there is no doubt in my mind Tira should be banned if you ban Reverse Waterfall that will be a slightly solved problem but looking through cards last night I found this piece of crap that she can abuse more than waterfall and requires no looping

http://img.coolstuffinc.net/products/ufs%20art/soul%20calibur%20iii/sc069.jpg

All you have to do is hammer or any other damage pumps you can find shouldn't be to hard to make this do 20+ damage with a few cards and your opponent takes full damage from this throw whether they block or not because you can respond with Tira to make them full block it no matter how they block

dutpotd
08-09-2011, 04:06 PM
Damn, that squirrel is my opinion of legacy too! And sure, ban Tira, we all know she is busted through and through. So much so that Matt has her as a side character in his Legacy topping deck!!!

Grizzlegrom
08-09-2011, 04:10 PM
Here is my opinion on Legacy there is no doubt in my mind Tira should be banned if you ban Reverse Waterfall that will be a slightly solved problem but looking through cards last night I found this piece of crap that she can abuse more than waterfall and requires no looping

http://img.coolstuffinc.net/products/ufs%20art/soul%20calibur%20iii/sc069.jpg

All you have to do is hammer or any other damage pumps you can find shouldn't be to hard to make this do 20+ damage with a few cards and your opponent takes full damage from this throw whether they block or not because you can respond with Tira to make them full block it no matter how they block

http://www.twoheadeddragon.com/ufs/SC01/scans/SC01_069.jpg

Birch
08-09-2011, 04:11 PM
I enjoyed playing in the event I played in.

Legacy i found to b rly fun and is dominated by brokeness. It's rly fun and I had a blast even tho I got bodied in finals.

Extended.... Wall decks all over, 3 hour games an boredom. Scrap it try again.

Standard was a blast and I feel the meta is open to most characters. Morathi may be a problem because his ability I free, but he isn't invincible. 6hs are viable more so than in other formats and I feel if all went my way I would have won with a 6hs.

TripsEX
08-09-2011, 04:12 PM
As someone who was breaking into Legacy for the first time in my UFS career, my opinions may be a little skewed, with that being said...


Legacy - Were the bannings enough? Does this format still cater to things that are arguably degenerative and still far to hard to deal with? List the cards that you think need to be addressed to make the format better.
After playing around with the format and watching the top players compete, I still think this is a pain in the ass format to break into as far as UFS goes. I have a ton of good Legacy equipment to go into battle with, but the lack of certain few power cards I was :):):):)ed right out of the gate with whatever decks I wanted to play. It also seems like some characters were played strictly because of their monster stats and not because of their abilities half the time. Next year I am not going to even care about Legacy, just because there is so much garbage to look through cardwise and because if anything comes into the format, it will be lost to what is standing right now.



Extended - Should we just scrap this format? Is it possible to address the style of play in Extended with bannings? If so list the cards you think need to be addressed to make the format better.
Let's replace this format with Old Dogs New Tricks. I didn't think the game was that fun while these cards were standard legal, and 5-Point isn't making that much of an impact to make it anymore fun. Things I would replace this with: Old Dogs New Tricks, some sort of limited event, not an event at all since we have too many UFS events all weekend, some kind of Block Constructed deck (just use cards from only one set, let's go ahead and ban Extreme Rivals right away [Ibuki, Cody]); or we can just scrap it because I don't feel we can salvage this format unless we separate it from Standard completely and then go hard on the bannings. Chase URs and busted characters OWN this format and that is not a good thing.


Standard - List the cards that you think need to be addressed to make the format better. Are there any concerns you would like to raise surronding the promo card releases, the relative increase in power level of cards as they and new sets are released, etc.?
There's a lot of power creep going on, and I hope it gets answered (which I do believe it will with ToV and farther sets.)

ATLPiglet
08-09-2011, 04:44 PM
Garrett I know u like extended but dam that is soooo boring. When u die roll for the win in top 4 u know its bad. When the two finalists wanna call it a draw cause they are tired of playing its terrible. I am glad I won dont get me wrong and I enjoyed some of it but now I won it I will never play the format like that again.EVER EVER again.
StAndard is fine fun fast got a lil control got serious aggro really good

Grizzlegrom
08-09-2011, 04:49 PM
Garrett I know u like extended but dam that is soooo boring. When u die roll for the win in top 4 u know its bad. When the two finalists wanna call it a draw cause they are tired of playing its terrible. I am glad I won dont get me wrong and I enjoyed some of it but now I won it I will never play the format like that again.EVER EVER again.
StAndard is fine fun fast got a lil control got serious aggro really good

Agreed but we need to make all the extended champ cards come together for a song lol


I still like the idea for a chair tap out action for ya lol...

dutpotd
08-09-2011, 05:13 PM
Garrett I know u like extended but dam that is soooo boring. When u die roll for the win in top 4 u know its bad. When the two finalists wanna call it a draw cause they are tired of playing its terrible. I am glad I won dont get me wrong and I enjoyed some of it but now I won it I will never play the format like that again.EVER EVER again.
StAndard is fine fun fast got a lil control got serious aggro really good

Yeah, I get it. I like Cetonis' idea of dropping Extended to be replaced by sealed/draft as a legit/supported format.

rAn
08-09-2011, 05:40 PM
Hmm..I'll comment on the formats that I was able to participate in at GenCon.

Extended - Garrett let me borrow Felicia Spike deck which i went 3-2 with (lost to Shaneth's Akuma in G3 (i think) and Garrett just slaughtered me). I agree with most of what has been said about this format throughout this thread. Sardine/Felicia/Akuma etc etc need to be addressed. But since I didn't go too in depth with building decks / researching this format that's all that I can really say. I feel like extended could be dropped as a format seeing as how we already have Legacy/Standard/Teams to fill 3 days of tournaments.

Standard - I ended up playing Fire Zi Mei in this format , because why not. The format seems pretty healthy, although Piercing Howl IS a problem in my eyes.

Teams - Teams is the most fun I had all week end. I played Fire Morathi while my 2 team mates played Nina and Padma. Even though we ended up like 1-1-2 , then gave final round win to a guaranteed top 8 spot, it was still a blast. The only reason i mention teams is that I think if Extended were to go, this could just be expanded to fill that void. Maybe alternate events where there is Legacy Teams and Standard Teams? That'd be interesting.

dutpotd
08-09-2011, 05:59 PM
Legacy Teams and Standard Teams? That'd be interesting.

I like the idea of Legacy teams, but we'd need a good number of participants to make this work. Who knows, we had more legacy players this year than last, you never know.

HypeMan!
08-09-2011, 07:21 PM
I personally loved playing legacy. Just from the weekend I think its been balanced out quite nicely by the recent bans. I could have never run the type of deck I did and been anywhere close to effective in old legacy with YWNE and other BS dropping left and right. My thought on it is that there is a counter to pretty much everything and to run defenses to all that would be impractical either in deck size or consistency. Now I'd like to see more legacy tournaments just because of how fun it was. It looks like a healthy format where any deck type as a chance, control or aggro, without either being able to completely dominate things.

As for extended, I don't want to be anywhere near it. I use to feel that way about legacy before the bannings, but I honestly think that extended is beyond repair. The card pool is almost designed to be degenerate and stupid; you'd have to go about clearing whole sets from play to even begin fixing things. I just say scrap it. My thought on extended was its a format created to appease those upset by early rotation. Well by GenCon next year, the card pool should be fine and we won't have to worry anymore. I'm not saying there isn't a place for extended, but I'd like to see it function as a kinda of legacy-lite format, for those that have older cards, but not a super deep pool needed for legacy. Let's just let it die and come back to it in a few years when all the standard stuff is done and the people getting into it now what to do something with their rotated cards.

Standard seems good. More or less. Handsize is a problem atm; on both the defensive and offensive side of things, especially when there are 7 handsize characters that have abilities for draw, like Eva or Morathi. Not saying they're broken, but you effectively have 8 handsizers on the defense and offensive respectively, and giving a 7HS a draw or play for free ability where HS is so dominant is an issue. I don't think the problem is fixable by just giving 6HS a similar ability like King or Nehtali2 because you're just exacerbating the problem, but rather you need to give the 6HS more efficient use of their 6 cards, more bang for the buck as it were. Mitsurugi does this decently well but I think that half of his power comes from his support and interaction where as a lot of 7HS can just play more cards and win.


Overall other things: Time was a big problem. Even I was completely burnt out by the end of the weekend and that's saying something. I think scrapping one format or having it run concurrently with another, so people have to chose, would be a decent plan. Or even splitting up Standard into 2 swiss brackets that ran at the same time and the top 4 from A and B would make the overall top 8... then again that sounds a lot like grinders, but as it gets bigger and bigger that will have to be considered.

Legacy teams sounds like a cool idea. Good luck fitting it in.

Grizzlegrom
08-09-2011, 07:21 PM
I would love legacy teams

aslum
08-09-2011, 07:22 PM
My thoughts:
Drop extended. We don't have time for 4 tournaments and still do anything else (like see the con, or sleep).
After round two of Standard (and Legacy too, sure why not), have a "side draft/sealed" event. Anyone who is doing poorly can drop (or who isn't playing in the actual event) and join a sealed (EG Starter + 2 boosters) or draft style event that runs simultaneously with Standard. This would help keep people around until the top cut, but still allow folks to play. You'd probably also have people who would show up for just the side events (or if someone showed up late).
The real key is going to be getting everything to start on time. I'd suggest requiring deck-lists to be turned in at least half an hour before hand. Or make an app so we can submit our decks online (and maybe have a laptop or two available for players to register their decks at).

rAn
08-09-2011, 07:46 PM
I think the only real way to fit in a legacy teams event is to probably just have one or the other at events. Say this year we had Standard Teams @ GenCon we could then have Legacy Teams at Nats..then GenCon 2012 have Legacy Teams and the following Nats have Standard Teams again.

HypeMan!
08-09-2011, 07:52 PM
Hmmmmmm perhaps. Perhaps.

RockStar
08-10-2011, 10:27 AM
I think the only real way to fit in a legacy teams event is to probably just have one or the other at events. Say this year we had Standard Teams @ GenCon we could then have Legacy Teams at Nats..then GenCon 2012 have Legacy Teams and the following Nats have Standard Teams again.

Uhm...no. I don't think this is a good suggestion at all. As someone who doesn't like Legacy, as it's a bit exclusive - meaning that, if you're a newer player, good luck on having access to as wide amount of card collection as someone who's been dedicated for many years - and that I would rather play Standard, because it's much more fun and equalized format (imo).

Being "forced" to play one format over the other is simply foul and unfair.

rAn
08-10-2011, 11:10 AM
Teams is an alternative format, it can be anything it wants to be. If people want to win a character card they're 'forced' to play Standard, is that 'foul and unfair?' I think it's more 'foul and unfair' that as someone who owns legacy cards, who has been dedicated to the game for a while, can only play 2 major events a year with those cards.

HypeMan!
08-10-2011, 01:00 PM
I would personally like to see a Legacy circuit develop now that the format has been fixed considerably. Though I agree, we were horribly pressed for time this year, there's barely enough time in the weekend for 4 main events, we tact another in there and forget sleep, we'd have to start playing Wednesday.

failed2k
08-10-2011, 01:06 PM
Standard - Falling into the dominate 7 hander size meta once again, good card design can help work on it, but as it stands now, its entering a block 2 like enviroment(only 7 handsize hybrids/7 handsize control/7 handsize aggro and 5-6 handsize antimeta were viable) The format needs like cards like revoke(actions with strong effects favoring 7 handers) and more like brooding(useful abilities with costs bases on vitality equally playable by 6 or 7 handers).


Extended - Just let it die. PLace all the prize support and Focus on Legacy/Teams and Standard. That is 3 major tournaments that everyone is currently happy with. As long as Legacy is properly supported, extended doesn't need to exist.

Legacy - A fantastic start, Is there cards I still have problems with? Sure(Absurd, Looptastic cards like reverse waterfall). Is the format actually pretty fun to play in? Absolutely. Keep it well supported and openly discussed, and I think we can have standards true counterpart for once.

RockStar
08-10-2011, 01:09 PM
I'm sorry if i was coming across as anti-Legacy, so please let me clarify.

I don't mind Legacy having Teams events at all. In fact, i'm in favor for it.

What i'm against is alternating between having ONLY Legacy Teams or ONLY Standard Teams events at Worlds or Nats. I would much prefer that Extended be done away with all-together, and that time be dedicated to Legacy Teams, so that a full weekend of events would feature Standard Singles and Standard Teams, as well as Legacy Singles and Legacy Teams.

I think we have players who prefer one format over the other, and others who enjoy both formats equally well. Alternating Teams formats does a disservice to EVERY player who ponies up the $$ to attend a major event such as Worlds or Nats.

dutpotd
08-10-2011, 01:09 PM
Legacy - A fantastic start, Is there cards I still have problems with? Sure(Absurd, Looptastic cards like reverse waterfall). Is the format actually pretty fun to play in? Absolutely. Keep it well supported and openly discussed, and I think we can have standards true counterpart for once.

One of my favorite games of the weekend was against you and your damn jabs in that legacy deck :) Very fun.

Skull_Knight
08-10-2011, 01:27 PM
Replace Extended with Yomi Singles. Just saying....

Saikyo-Crusher
08-10-2011, 03:11 PM
Legacy: My deck sucked. Nicholas the Saint officially has no hope.

Extended: Yes, this format is broken. I understand that there is still a lot of hate for the 'spike. What you people didn't see (if you weren't at GENCON) was that this attack was one of the few ways I had to beat through early on before people built up too much. You kind of need a battering ram to break down a wall. That being said, I am curious as to what may be done to either correct this format or to replace it. So please don't hate on the 'spike, it's too sexy.

Standard: Pretty well balanced. I think Piercing Howl may become an issue, but I am still on the edge about this one.

Side note: I am still one of those (few?) people who still would like to look forward to a Vintage format with more cards made available. If you don't want to play in it, don't. If you do, more power to you.

aslum
08-10-2011, 07:59 PM
So here's a (probably dumb) idea for teams: Have one (and only 1) deck on the team be legacy/extended. The two legacy decks fight against each other automatically each round.

mattkohls
08-10-2011, 08:38 PM
Legacy is fun. Don't ban blazing cadenza. Also I never sided into tira during this tournament.

HypeMan!
08-10-2011, 08:59 PM
/sarcasm?

Grizzlegrom
08-10-2011, 09:12 PM
Legacy is fun. Don't ban blazing cadenza. Also I never sided into tira during this tournament.

It rolls a 1 I think it's fair

HypeMan!
08-10-2011, 09:58 PM
Its really only a problem when you can keep getting it back turn after turn :P

Nyobari
08-11-2011, 05:21 PM
Blazing Cadenza is not Feline Spike, folks. 1cc decks and Matt Kohls runs it, and go ahead and run it in your deck and see how frustrated you get with it. That's not exactly a huge amount of decks here. If anything, AS is the issue there... as going Cadenza + 2 AS w/ an Unrequited Love is stupid.

Grizzlegrom
08-11-2011, 05:58 PM
Blazing Cadenza is not Feline Spike, folks. 1cc decks and Matt Kohls runs it, and go ahead and run it in your deck and see how frustrated you get with it. That's not exactly a huge amount of decks here. If anything, AS is the issue there... as going Cadenza + 2 AS w/ an Unrequited Love is stupid.

Yeah it is good but it isn't really going to kill people as easy without hammers there are a whole ton of cards that have escaped ban hammers due to either people forgetting about them or the old owners never cared about legacy unless a card was a MAJOR issue

Grizzlegrom
08-11-2011, 05:59 PM
Blazing Cadenza is not Feline Spike, folks. 1cc decks and Matt Kohls runs it, and go ahead and run it in your deck and see how frustrated you get with it. That's not exactly a huge amount of decks here. If anything, AS is the issue there... as going Cadenza + 2 AS w/ an Unrequited Love is stupid.

Yeah it is good but it isn't really going to kill people as easy without hammers there are a whole ton of cards that have escaped ban hammers due to either people forgetting about them or the old owners never cared about legacy unless a card was a MAJOR issue

HypeMan!
08-11-2011, 06:07 PM
Just because a card is good doesn't mean it should be banned. I don't think AS is a ban worthy card personally, since there are plenty of ways to stop it in the symbols that should be able to stop it, and I don't just mean YM.

makingsenseofus
08-12-2011, 10:26 AM
Legacy: Still a few issues, easy kill enabling ect.

1: Take a look at Dhalsim: Reason I built my legacy deck, I could play a character with a handsize that outbuilds most character's in the format and has a built in win condition that lets me gut my opponent's entire hand while getting Meglofest off yoga teleport. In legacy, the hand is used for more than blocking: discard 1 costs like inhuman perception and revenant's calling are completely turned off by it. As far as legacy characters go, he is easily one of the best. Not to mention Lesser of many evils, which shares 2 of his symbol's, can effectively turn off entire staging areas. I don't know if he's broken, but he's REALLY GOOD.

2: If you don't want to get rid of AS, ban the real enabler: Kung Fu Training. In the format, it is really easy to make an attack fatal on damage turn 2. The only reason that attack hits though, is KFT. +5-6 speed turn 2 or 3 is just too damn good, not to mention it has another incredibly powerful effect, not to mention it has 6 symbols.

3: ban reverse waterfall: I'm pretty sure this is already happening.

4: Look at Seal of Cessation. I had several games in my matches where the only reason I couldn't die was because I had this card in my staging area. It negates anything, has the infinity symbol AND promotes control decks way more than aggro decks. Why is this? 3 difficulty. An aggro deck would rather run way of the mightiest or Typfg. 3 control: an aggro deck would rather run an attack. ANY attack. R: negate anything. Here you might say "but then the aggro deck can negate an ability the control deck is using" Not while the control deck is still running Seal of Cessation. Half the time the effect of this card is used, it's negating another copy of it. Not to mention that on turn 2, the control deck is more likely to have a seal down than the aggro deck, because the aggro deck needs a foundation in the staging area early over an asset. With a crappy dif/control rating, the fact that it's an asset and a universal effect, all Seal is serving to do is slow the game down.

Extended: the format needs an overhaul. I'd start by banning Seal of Cessation. It has the same effects on the format as in legacy EXCEPT that you are missing the good legacy kill cards like AS and Seichu Nidan Tsuki. This means you have a lot of the control without a lot of the aggro that made legacy a faster game variant than extended. There were no 3 hour games in legacy top 8 like Garret vs. Brian in extended. Why? Because people could actually kill each other. Start by dropping the universal negator so that more viable kill options open up. Go from there if you want to save the format. If you don't, I'm sure some of us would enjoy the extra opportunities to explore the con and eat/sleep when we want.

Standard: Standard singles was the most balanced the game has ever been. From what I remember, we had 7 symbols represented in top 8 and it was literally anyone's game (I lucksacked drawing attacks/checking 5's like a boss that day). Now that the new promo's are out in the world, they seem REALLY good. Not sure if they're broken yet, but Garret's action is absolutely fantastic, not to mention UFS house being incredibly solid. Whether or not either of the cards are "broken" or "auto-includes" remains to be seen. My only problem with garret's action at the moment is that you can commit characters with it. Sure it's a 3 check, but the reason for that is because of the Enhance, you can basically run it as a substitute for an attack. And character committal is few in far between in the format for a very good reason. In this format, the character makes the deck in almost every scenario.

dutpotd
08-12-2011, 10:41 AM
My only problem with garret's action at the moment is that you can commit characters with it. Sure it's a 3 check, but the reason for that is because of the Enhance, you can basically run it as a substitute for an attack. And character committal is few in far between in the format for a very good reason. In this format, the character makes the deck in almost every scenario.

I'll let you know that the #1 reason I designed the card was to commit characters and stop multiple use abilities that come from said characters. The top characters in the format are those that have really powerful abilities 'and that can use them over and over again unchecked, or for little or no cost' - Jon Herr, Eva, Heiachi, Reese, Omar, Astrid, Cassandra, etc.

My action card was my way of inserting an ability into the format that tones these characters down, or at least asks them to stop and think before using their mega abilities over and over again against an opponent who has no viable response to them that doesn't include holding 4 plus cards in hand and passing a plethora of blocks, sometimes extremely early in the game.

Long story short, the character can make the deck, but you can't count on it to always be ready, at least after you use it twice in a turn... Three times is just greedy!

And of course, my action is ironic in that it cancels itself. Put more plainly the enhance assists in recurring cards, possibly already played that turn, and the response steps in to negate and attempt to commit out recursion. The theme of the card is recursion, memory, and the benefits of checking cards (filling your discard pile) - hence fitting it's rather long and sure to be made fun of card Title.

Grizzlegrom
08-12-2011, 02:36 PM
For Legacy Ban these:

Tira***
Reverse Waterfall
Agohani Geri

And there are probably a list of other cards that will need to be brought up to the chopping block easy loops like these are some of the first things that should go

LuchaHeroAl
08-12-2011, 02:41 PM
For Legacy Ban these:

Tira***
Reverse Waterfall
Agohani Geri

And there are probably a list of other cards that will need to be brought up to the chopping block easy loops like these are some of the first things that should go

Tira isn't really a problem. She actually engourages multiple attacks aside from the loops. I played her with 16 attacks and would have been diversified out of top cuts if I didn't give the win to someone who could actually make it. Nothing in the deck is broken, just good.

Skull_Knight
08-12-2011, 05:02 PM
I think Tira is fine too, she just enables for some very dumb loops. I think you should just ban Waterfall in this situation. Also i am for the banning of Seal as well, the card just slows the game down too much in all formats its in.

Grizzlegrom
08-12-2011, 05:30 PM
Tira isn't really a problem. She actually engourages multiple attacks aside from the loops. I played her with 16 attacks and would have been diversified out of top cuts if I didn't give the win to someone who could actually make it. Nothing in the deck is broken, just good.

I already said why tira needed to be banned it has nothing to do with reverse waterfall there is a throw that is auto win with her look back farther

http://www.twoheadeddragon.com/ufs/SC01/scans/SC01_069.jpg

Tira just makes too many issues by herself banning a bunch of cards just to save tira isn't worth it IMO she just needs to go. Also just in case you don't get this you can just double absurd this way of the mightiest ior any other damage pump that could get this to 20+ without trying your opponent has the following options:

Option A: Don't Block and take full damage
Option B: Play any block on the card then you Tira R to make your opponent full block and they take full damage actually taking +2 damage if the throw is odd number damage

This requires no looping and could in theory be done turn 2 or late game good luck beating out death/evil's negation wall since Tira would only need 1 attack in deck and the rest negation and damage pumps

LuchaHeroAl
08-12-2011, 06:04 PM
I already said why tira needed to be banned it has nothing to do with reverse waterfall there is a throw that is auto win with her look back farther

http://www.twoheadeddragon.com/ufs/SC01/scans/SC01_069.jpg

Tira just makes too many issues by herself banning a bunch of cards just to save tira isn't worth it IMO she just needs to go. Also just in case you don't get this you can just double absurd this way of the mightiest ior any other damage pump that could get this to 20+ without trying your opponent has the following options:

Option A: Don't Block and take full damage
Option B: Play any block on the card then you Tira R to make your opponent full block and they take full damage actually taking +2 damage if the throw is odd number damage

This requires no looping and could in theory be done turn 2 or late game good luck beating out death/evil's negation wall since Tira would only need 1 attack in deck and the rest negation and damage pumps

You could win just as easily with dirty pool and any character as long as Absurd Strength is around.

Grizzlegrom
08-12-2011, 09:12 PM
You could win just as easily with dirty pool and any character as long as Absurd Strength is around.

Dirty Pool should be banned anyways free unblockable shouldn't exist anyways Tira is always going to be a problem if you ban waterfall she will find another card to break she is going to be an issue no matter what cards are banned or how the card pool changes

LuchaHeroAl
08-12-2011, 09:15 PM
Dirty Pool should be banned anyways free unblockable shouldn't exist anyways Tira is always going to be a problem if you ban waterfall she will find another card to break she is going to be an issue no matter what cards are banned or how the card pool changes

She isn't any worse than characters like 8 hand Dhalsim.

wafflecopter
08-13-2011, 02:24 PM
I didn't get to play Extended or Legacy this year (like at all, no one here wants to play with me :P). That said, Seal of Cessation has always bothered me a little bit; the worst part of Military Rank was recurring Seals for free. It's not even a good safety valve -- like Keenan said, its awful stats mean that it is only a card for control decks. There are enough random answer cards in UFS that honestly I don't think we'll ever be overwhelmed by degenerate combination decks, unless those combo decks have enough answers for all the other answers.

Honest question: Do 'attack decks' have a chance in Legacy? By that I mean a deck that might play three or four attacks on turn 2, hoping that the opponent can't block well enough. (with some foundation backup, obviously, but largely about the orange more than the grey)

As far as drafting, the idea to have a pool of characters like Magic has basic lands is absolutely fantastic. Even if 4 people want to play the same at the end of the draft, they can! They'll each have to deal with the fact that 3 other players were cutting the best cards for their deck, of course. I've been kinda floating ideas around in my head for a while on a UFS Cube (cubedrafting.com has a description for MTG) and frankly this idea is utterly perfect. Now, it's just time to choose characters and themes :D. (btw, one is already decided; Astrid playing Chain Throw or Shadow Banishment as a reversal. All else will follow)

Grizzlegrom
08-13-2011, 05:22 PM
She isn't any worse than characters like 8 hand Dhalsim.

Okay he can be banned too anything else?

HypeMan!
08-13-2011, 05:53 PM
Dang it. There goes a legacy deck I wanted to make. Bugger.

ATLDrew
08-13-2011, 06:13 PM
Attack decks are 100% viable in Legacy and are very very strong. The bannings really shook up the idea about Legacy being gray walls banging into each other. Give the format a try as almost every single symbol is at least playable. Air, Earth, Fire, Evil, and All are very strong symbols with aggressive strategies.

GTORules
08-13-2011, 11:10 PM
Legacy - I didn't play but I did have a deck to play with, I watched a ton of games and the format looks great, I only have a few cards that need to be looked at.
Tira - So she may not be broken, but why should I be discouraged from blocking knowing I am gonna take damage anyway unless I have a way to negate her ability? That's trash.
Hammer - It was a good card for the time but it is just too much of a pump for such a low cost and still completely shuts down any momentum based decks.
Reverse Waterfall - Endless loops should just not exist. Period.

Extended - Kill it, please with fire if possible. The matches are boring, take way too long and are just degenerate as all :):):):) Also this last comment may be a bit bias but having to get to the TCG hall at 8am for Teams because we had to compromise for Extended just to not end up playing until 10:30am anyways REALLY irked me. If teams was just set to start at 10am with no extended I would've got to sleep more and been in better shape.

Standard - This format is awesome and I love it, my only concern currently is as everyone has stated 7HS characters are just overpowering 6HS right now. The main concern I have for this right now is Paul Bittner, the only 6HS character that can stand up to his deck control is King because he doesn't require drawing attacks as much as other characters do, the only other one who might would be Mitsu just because how fast he can go off. Paul hasn't been out for too long so all we really have to go off of is what happened at Gencon but anyone with half a brain can see it to be true.

Grizzlegrom
08-13-2011, 11:22 PM
Extended - Kill it, please with fire if possible. The matches are boring, take way too long and are just degenerate as all :):):):) Also this last comment may be a bit bias but having to get to the TCG hall at 8am for Teams because we had to compromise for Extended just to not end up playing until 10:30am anyways REALLY irked me. If teams was just set to start at 10am with no extended I would've got to sleep more and been in better shape.



I honestly think extended will not be a good format until 5 point rotates out of standard then I think it will be a good format :)