PDA

View Full Version : Rules Updates before GenCon!



jason
08-03-2012, 03:39 PM
Greetings UFSers,

GenCon is only days away and we want to make sure you are up to date on our newest rulings. We have finished the new Living AGR, however we have decided to release it AFTER worlds to avoid any confusion this close to GenCon.

1. One question that has come up recently is "Once per turn" vs. "Only playable once per turn"

This ruling will be errata'd in the new rule book but for worlds it will go by the existing rulings:


2.8.9. Some cards have the words “Only playable” written in the last line of text in their effect. This line of text is to be regarded as an additional restriction and not part of the card effect.
2.8.9.1. If an ability with an “Only playable” restriction is negated or cancelled, it has still been played/activated, and may not be attempted again.


Cards that say "once per turn" without the only playable cause, can still be "played" if the cost can be fulfilled but the effect will not activate. The same goes for this wording, if it is attempted and failed, it is still considered "played" and the effect cannot be activated again.

Super Skull Man 33 is the biggest example of this ability coming into play, as he can pay the cost of his form even after his effect has taken place. This rule will change after GenCon but will be ruled this way for this event.

2. If a card copies printed values from an attack that is face down, the printed numbers will return a 0 however the zones of that attack will stay the same.

3. 2.14.2.4 Multiple
Multiple: X (Enhance) -E Discard up to X momentum: Place the momentum discarded to pay for this ability face down into your card pool to the right of
the Multiple attack. Each of the cards placed into your card pool counts as a
copy of the Multiple attack with a blank text box and speed and damage values equal to the printed values of the original attack. Multiple copies have no printed difficulty, control, block modifier, resource symbols, name, set logo, set number, rarity, illustrator or legal text. No control check is required
to play these cards, and each copy has its own Enhance Step, Block Step, and
Damage Step. Players must go from left to right, resolving each attack in turn. If a multiple copy would go to a player’s momentum for any reason, it is discarded instead. If you attempt to create a “multiple copy” of a “multiple copy,” the “copy of the copy” is discarded. Multiple copies are always added to the card pool face down (regardless of their source).
2.14.2.4.1 The Multiple keyword is a played ability.
2.14.2.4.2 A card with Multiple is also considered to have an enhance ability printed on the card.
2.14.2.4.3 Multiple copies have no printed values of their own. The face down card is only the representation of an attack, and anything that references printed values of the attack will return a “null” (or “zero” for a number).

NOTE:

Other cards (such as crescent moon hook) that copy an attack will maintain memory of the copied attack until the end of the turn.

4. Combo requires a "Printed" value for the restriction.

5. Reversals must be played from hand with a control check made against their difficulty before they are considered "played".

6. Desperation is in effect when a character is under half of their vitality. (eg. a 26 vitality character is at desperation when they are at 12 vitality or less. A 27 vitality character is at desperation when they are at 13 vitality or less.)

7. Face down cards have no name and printed values of 0 for control and difficulty. they have no blocks or resource symbols.

8. Activating and failing Effects:

To clarify, if you attempt to play an ability that says (only playable once per turn) and fail, you may not attempt to play it again. (not to be confused with "once per turn). This is a new ruling and not in the current AGR but will be updated. The card is not considered "played" if you fail it but was "attempted" and failed. You also may not re-attempt an enhance ability that had previously failed during a single Enhance Step and may not attempt to play a response again that had failed to a specific trigger.

Crescent Moon Hook will be getting the following emergency Errata:

First E: If this attack was played as a reversal, turn this card face down. Then choose 1 attack in your opponent's card pool. This attack becomes an exact copy of the chosen attack with its own Enhance Step, Block Step and Damage Step and gains your characters resource symbols.


Rising Typhoon will be getting the following emergency Errata:

Multiple: 2 - Reversal
You must discard face up attacks from your card pool instead of discarding momentum in order to pay for this card's Multiple cost.
E Discard 1 card: Choose 2 committed foundations in your opponent's staging area. They do not ready during your opponent's next turn.

This should help keep you all clear on the rules before we go into the big event!

If you have other questions please post them here.

PS. This will probably not happen, but it has been brought to us

"what happens if a copy of an attack has it's zones changed to their printed zone?"

In this rare instance, the card will not have a "printed" zone so if you change the zone of a copied attack to printed, it will act as if it had all 3 of the zones and can be fully blocked by any block zone excluding cards without blocks. I believe Holding Ground is the only card that can do this, but if this comes up in the future it will be clarified in the new rules as well. This is not to be confused with changing a copied attack to printed "speed", that would just return a 0.

syclic
08-04-2012, 03:29 PM
http://i1004.photobucket.com/albums/af164/nozshan/2123.png


from the tournament rules published on the OP site: http://organizedplay.jascogames.com/Downloads/UFS%20Advanced%20Rules%20ver%202.0%20(Jasco%20Orig inal).pdf

top of page 19

jason
08-04-2012, 03:36 PM
That is simply saying you have to pay costs to play abilities, you can still voluntarily fail it. You don't have the "option" to not pay a cost and still get the ability.

jason
08-04-2012, 04:04 PM
I forgot to repost this. Since our multiples experiment didn't work. We are reverting back to the origional multiple ruling where multiple copies remain attacks after they resolve.

Please pass this news on to all players!

Shinguyi
08-04-2012, 07:48 PM
I'm curious Jasco, what was the aim with the experiment with Multiples? If its no problem with asking.

jason
08-04-2012, 09:45 PM
For clarity purposes, we wanted to have a consistent reason that multiple copies of attacks didn't go to momentum, and could not have multiple copies made of themselves. We concluded that if they are all considered face down, non-attacks there would be no reason for them to go to momentum, etc anyway.

From the perspective of new players this made sense to us, but as you can see ended up causing more complications than otherwise.

Shinguyi
08-04-2012, 10:08 PM
Ah, makes sense. Well... it is the keyword with the longest written effect.
I apologize again for all the mishap I did though. I kind of feel bad about it. ^^;

By the way, the ruling regarding Reversals still stand? As in, that when using the Response to attempt to play the reversal and it gets canceled, the reversal is sent to the discard pile? Just making sure for anyone who will be going to GenCon (and future reference for casual play over here).

NJBrock22
08-04-2012, 10:34 PM
Rising Typhoon will be getting the emergency Errata:

Multiple: 2 - Reversal
You must discard face up attacks from your card pool instead of discarding momentum in order to pay for this card's Multiple cost.
E Discard 1 card: Choose 2 committed foundations in your staging area. They do not ready during your opponent's next turn.



... shouldn't it be 2 in your OPPONENT's otherwise this makes ZERO sense...

N.J.

Shinguyi
08-04-2012, 11:36 PM
Haha, nice catch. XD

Its supposed to be your opponent's.

Dillon
08-05-2012, 01:01 AM
I laughed so hard at what NJ just pointed out.

makingsenseofus
08-05-2012, 07:40 AM
Thanks for the clarifications Jason!

sunwentai
08-05-2012, 07:50 AM
Thank you for these updates. :)

wafflecopter
08-05-2012, 09:56 AM
Could you briefly explain what changed in the Multiple keyword? It's a lot of text to parse looking for one small difference.

Thanks for getting these changes out there

jason
08-05-2012, 01:22 PM
We changed multiple back to how it used to work, but also stated that it has no printed values anywhere not just the text box, speed and damage.

I fixed the typo on Rising Typhoon. It should work correctly now.

Grizzlegrom
08-07-2012, 03:38 PM
Wouldn't this fall under the stupid brilliant tactician vs piercing howl ruling though? Since the multiple copies are flipped face up the game forgets what it was like if you flipped piercing howl face down so wouldn't that work the same for multiple copies? Once they are turned face up they are no longer multiple copies right?

rAn
08-07-2012, 04:13 PM
(I'm pretty sure) Piercing Howl beats Brilliant Tactician because it leaves a public zone and goes to a private zone face down. Card pool is a public zone and even if they get turned face up in the card pool they never changed zone so they should still be multiple copies.

Hatman
08-08-2012, 08:03 AM
For clarity purposes, we wanted to have a consistent reason that multiple copies of attacks didn't go to momentum, and could not have multiple copies made of themselves. We concluded that if they are all considered face down, non-attacks there would be no reason for them to go to momentum, etc anyway.
Wait so the ruling that states multiple copies cannot go to momentum EVER (as in, even if you use an effect that would send them there) is still in effect?

I hope you can hear me sigh heavily.

Cetonis
08-08-2012, 10:09 AM
Oh - does this impact Crescent Moon Hook? If it lands does it remain as an attack in the card pool that can go to momentum? I think people would still argue about the copy being the effect of an enhance and thus ending upon resolution, but the copy effect on multiple comes from an enhance too...

wafflecopter
08-08-2012, 10:23 AM
Wait so the ruling that states multiple copies cannot go to momentum EVER (as in, even if you use an effect that would send them there) is still in effect?

I hope you can hear me sigh heavily.

It's always worked this way -- if I Kunai a multiple copy, it gets discarded.


If a multiple copy would go to a player’s momentum for any reason, it is discarded instead. ^ This has been in the AGR definition of the multiple keyword since day 1 IIRC

Hatman
08-08-2012, 01:17 PM
It's always worked this way -- if I Kunai a multiple copy, it gets discarded.
I still hate that ruling.

rAn
08-08-2012, 01:45 PM
I still hate that ruling.

It's not so much a ruling as actual game rules.

dutpotd
08-08-2012, 02:14 PM
It's not so much a ruling as actual game rules.

Does it matter what it is? What I presume what Hatman doesn't like is that a card says something 'should' happen (a face down card is added to momentum) but 'doesn't' happen because of a select bit of AGR text.

There is a natural ambiguity between what is a face down card and what is a multiple copy. Is a card both, is it just a face down card, for how long (memory) etc.? And of course the fact that, if you didn't have the AGR in front of you and know the text that 'insteads its way around what you would think would be a case of the golden rule', you would think a card like Apple a Day that tells you to do something with a facedown card would in fact do it to a card that is face down.

I'm not saying I disagree or anything, I am just saying Hatman has a number of valid reasons to hate the circumstances surronding all that is multiple and facedown.

Hatman
08-08-2012, 05:36 PM
Does it matter what it is? What I presume what Hatman doesn't like is that a card says something 'should' happen (a face down card is added to momentum) but 'doesn't' happen because of a select bit of AGR text.
A select bit of AGR text that is only relevant for one single ability in the entire game.

Honestly, unclear card interactions beyond knowing the AGR by heart should be purged (KILLER ANDROID KAZUYA INTERACTION I'M LOOKING AT YOU). Preferably with fire.

jason
08-09-2012, 07:48 PM
Multiple: X (Enhance) - E Discard up to X momentum: Place the momentum
discarded to pay for this ability face down into your card pool to the right of the
Multiple attack. Each of the cards placed into your card pool counts as a copy of
the Multiple attack with a blank text box and speed and damage values equal
to the printed values of the original attack. No control check is required to play
these cards, and each copy has its own Enhance Step, Block Step, and Damage
Step. Players must go from left to right, resolving each attack in turn. If a
multiple copy would go to a player’s momentum for any reason, it is discarded
instead. If you attempt to create a “multiple copy” of a “multiple copy,” the “copy
of the copy” is discarded

This is actually taken straight from the starter deck rules as well (same rules since the game came out).

I do agree that certain strange interactions (like killer andriod and Kazuya) are not great for the game but these things do happen and we just have to make sure they don't happen again in future game design.

Cresent Moon Hook can go to momentum if it deals damage (even if it copied an attack).

-Jason

sunwentai
08-10-2012, 06:39 AM
And if Crescent Mook Hook copied a Multiple copy, could it go to momentum?

wafflecopter
08-10-2012, 07:01 AM
If Moon Hook copied a multiple copy, it would be a 0M0 (? not sure on the zone, actually). I suspect it would be able to go to momentum, because "This is a multiple copy" is not printed on the card and thus isn't copied.

Hatman -- IMO "unclear" and obscure are two very different animals. Making obscure rules beats the piss out of having unclear rules, ie rules that do not actually define what happens, or contradict one another (see: the circus around Harnessing Chaos and Mishima Family Bloodline over the last year). The multiple copies and momentum rule exists, I think, to make sure you have to discard multiple copies during the End Step. And they just decided that rule should apply during the whole turn to all momentum generating effects.

jason
08-10-2012, 07:19 AM
We clarified recently that the "printed zone" of a multiple attack or any copied attack on a face down is all zones. Otherwise it's zone is the zone it copied.

dutpotd
08-10-2012, 10:04 AM
This is actually taken straight from the starter deck rules as well (same rules since the game came out).


This is a good point, just goes to show how long ago it was I looked at one of those foldy things :)

wafflecopter
08-10-2012, 12:46 PM
We clarified recently that the "printed zone" of a multiple attack or any copied attack on a face down is all zones. Otherwise it's zone is the zone it copied.All zones? Can you send me the link?

jason
08-10-2012, 03:48 PM
We have updated Crescent Moon Hook with a functional errata with the reverted Multiple Rules.

This was just caught and is an unexpected last minute change.

Thank you

dutpotd
08-12-2013, 05:06 PM
I'm just bumping this pre-Gencon 2012 thread because these rulings have yet to make it into an officially updated document and yet this thread is not stick-ied.

If I was to summarize my key takeaways on this:

Skullman and others can still pay costs for more than once a turn played abilities if they have a 'once per turn' wording but not a 'only playable once per turn' wording in their effect.

Reversals cards need to be passed (played) before the Reversal response is considered played and subsequently negate-able. Formerly the Reversal response ability had a cost that included 'revealing' the card from your hand.

Bump!