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Grizzlegrom
12-15-2012, 05:27 AM
Please discuss your thoughts and ideas on what Midori's abilities should be the top ideas will be voted on by the community I would like all ability designs turned in around Christmas if possible :)

http://fc05.deviantart.net/fs70/i/2012/317/3/f/midori_by_jane10lo-d5kuznx.jpg

http://th02.deviantart.net/fs71/PRE/i/2012/334/0/6/glass_girl_by_jane10lo-d5mots2.jpg

http://fc09.deviantart.net/fs71/i/2012/343/2/4/card_fight_ufs_characters_design_board_by_jane10lo-d5nhnj6.jpg

Grizzlegrom
12-15-2012, 05:29 AM
Midori
5' 7''
???lb
A+ Blood Type
Female

Air Earth Void

Born into unknown region of southeast asia, the woman nicknamed as 'Midori' for her striking green eyes, spent her childhood in an illegal gem mining operation in central Myanmar. As far back as she could remember most of youth was spent wandering dark narrow caverns, looking for gems that otherwise seemed invaluable to her. With such long time spent in solitude in this arduous labor, Midori began to familiarize herself with the earth and the ores, minerals, and gems that it was enriched with. By the time she was ten years old, she had discovered a rare crystal which she had learned to manipulate to grow and envelop herself in a protective armor. With relentless practice and precision she could now form not only armor, but sharp shard-like projections which could be easily utilized as weaponry... an advantage she readily took to kill the mine operators to liberate herself and many of the other children enslaved in the operation.

The rest of her life was spent moving between Thailand, Vietnam, and the Phillipines taking on work as protection or as an enforcer to whatever organization needed a person with great strength, precision, and quick strike (Air, Earth, Void). However, she never stayed with one group long, as she has a great dislike for those who wish to push her outside the limitations of her own honor codes. Her power to utilize the rare mineral, also seemed to come at a price. The more she used this ability, the more difficult it became to remove the crystal from herself. The gem seems to be integrating into body, and so far parts of her legs are permanently encased. Hearing that the ENKI Genetics may have a possible cure for this illness, Midori has taken an interest in trying to find a cure for herself. She plans to first to track down, Reese, the closest asset she can access to enter ENKI and find a cure for herself... whether he likes it or not.

Midori has a profound respect for nature, and a great appreciation for solitude. She also respects people who have similar lifestyles and honor codes, but she is not the type to be extroverted or forthcoming with people. However, if she considers someone trustworthy, she is an extremely loyal and tenacious ally.

vaporgecko
12-15-2012, 09:43 AM
It sounds like she would be a great character to utilize the Ranged keyword and a strong fluid defense. I originally thought about damage reduction, but if you assume she must generate the crystal armor/shield in response to an attack, you get more interesting things to work with. How about:

R, commit: After you block using a card with the Ranged keyword, your block gains Breaker: X, where X is half your momentum.

R: Before you take damage from an attack, you may discard X momentum to reduce the damage by X. Playable while committed.

I'm not sure exactly how balanced her first ability is. I really want to be able to just have X equal her momentum, but I have horrific visions of her getting up to 6 or more momentum and dropping massive breaker on the opponent. Mechanically she could stand to do a fair amount of disruptive blocking and then damage negation at a fairly high cost.Thematically the combination of abilities together represent her armoring up, and then the armor chipping away throughout a series of attacks (i.e. the opponent's turn).

These abilities mostly represent her strength and precision (being able to ignore exactly enough damage, and being able to slow down an onslaught of attacks). Her speed would end up getting represented more in her attack cards. Though, it can also be represented by giving her a 7HS / 18 Vit.

Rider kick
12-15-2012, 05:58 PM
She is a counter character and i designed an attack as well. she's 6h 27 health.

Rider kick
12-15-2012, 06:03 PM
R: After a card is played put a crystal Counter on Midori only playable during your turn.
E Commit: This attack gets + x damage or - x damage were x is the amount of Crystal counters on Midori Minus the control of the attack
R Commit: After an attack is played remove X crystal counters this attack gets plus x speed or minus X speed were x is the control of the attack.

Attack:
Emerald Splash
Ranged, Multiple 2, Combo (Low attack, High Attack)
6 Diff
3 check
Block +3 Mid
4 H/ 3 Damage
If this attack blocks a ranged attack it's block modifier is considered +0 Mid

Combo E: Remove X crystal counters from Midori, this attack gets + x speed or +x damage x equals the amount of counters removed.

Other attack names: Diamond Straight, Quartz Eruption, Ruby Blitz

squrlmstr
12-15-2012, 06:46 PM
All attack cards played recieve breaker 1.
R: Commit: After the beginning of your opponents combat phase begins, name a card type, that card may be played as a reversal against ghs next attack your opponent plays

NJBrock22
12-15-2012, 08:10 PM
loose idea for an ability here:

Static: After a player ends their turn without playing an attack, add 1 crystal token to their character(not playable during that player's first turn). If a player has X or more crystal token's on their character, they lose their remaining vitality. X equals their character's printed hand size -1.

hopefully prevents turtling

E(4+): This attack gets -X or +X damage. X equals the number of token's on the character who played the attack.

maybe?

F: Remove 1 ready foundation from the game: Search your discard pile for a foundation of equal or lesser difficulty and add it to your staging area ready. If there are now more than 2 copies of a foundation in your staging area, commit your character.

again maybe?

these are rough draft ideas for abilities so modify them as you want.

N.J.

HypeMan!
12-15-2012, 09:57 PM
Need to keep in mind her symbols when designing her abilities. Least we've got plenty of time to think about it.

Cetonis
12-15-2012, 10:48 PM
Checking this out more or less for the first time, questions:

1) Is there any sort of intent/hope of trying to get this actually printed? (If so, tokens are a dealbreaker... just fair warning)

2) Would this be as a one-of character, or would there presumably be support? This is important as that has some impact on what sorts of abilities the character should have.

NJBrock22
12-16-2012, 02:32 AM
Checking this out more or less for the first time, questions:

1) Is there any sort of intent/hope of trying to get this actually printed? (If so, tokens are a dealbreaker... just fair warning)

didn't we agree to disagree about this in the chat room a few months ago, trust me Tokens CAN work, you just have to design it with intent that the support doesn't consistantly go to other characters and cause BAD interactions *cough* Vanity *cough* so just stop beating that horse and open your mind to the idea.


2) Would this be as a one-of character, or would there presumably be support? This is important as that has some impact on what sorts of abilities the character should have.

i believe kirk said earlier that if there's demand for it, there'd be a full set of her support.

N.J.

Rider kick
12-16-2012, 07:17 AM
Checking this out more or less for the first time, questions:

1) Is there any sort of intent/hope of trying to get this actually printed? (If so, tokens are a dealbreaker... just fair warning)

2) Would this be as a one-of character, or would there presumably be support? This is important as that has some impact on what sorts of abilities the character should have.

Okay, first I don't understand why counters are a "deal breaker"? Is it because you dont like them personally?
If you read her bio and the way her powers work counters seem an ideal representation of her powers as she gains counters she is encasing her body in crystal and she removes counters as a representation of releasing them to attack.

And yes I have been making support I already gave an attack along with several other attack names. I'm also working to make some foundations like "Diamond is Unbreakable"

Grizzlegrom
12-16-2012, 09:46 AM
Checking this out more or less for the first time, questions:

1) Is there any sort of intent/hope of trying to get this actually printed? (If so, tokens are a dealbreaker... just fair warning)

2) Would this be as a one-of character, or would there presumably be support? This is important as that has some impact on what sorts of abilities the character should have.

1) I think tokens would by fine if designed well but I did want them originally on my character and it was rejected. Cuz Polka tokens would be the best idea ever :p lol

2) the intent is a set of support at least the size of 1 of each card type :)

EDIT: Added art to OP

Cetonis
12-18-2012, 10:03 PM
Tokens are a dealbreaker because Jason hates them too. That's what I meant by fair warning. You will never get a token character printed unless - and only very maybe - there's something really cool and unique going on, ideally combined with a sufficiently limited amount of bookkeeping.

Counting tokens to do speed and damage mods, the most generic effects in this game, will never fly. It has to be an effect type that hasn't been seen before and can't realistically function in any way that does not involve tokens, not something we do all the time or even once in a while that you just want to use tokens to store or count or whatever.

NJBrock22
12-18-2012, 10:58 PM
and don't take this the wrong way, but it just sounds like someone's wanting to be lazy by not having Tokens in the game to begin with... i mean the average person has a few D6 laying around and THOSE constitute tokens as long as it's signaled when a token is added(again someone playing by the rules) but eh... i've talked to jason about it before he said and i quote "I'd think about tokens one day but not at the moment" so yeah.

N.J.

HypeMan!
12-19-2012, 01:53 AM
Tokens have just become problems and silly ways of counting damage. The only time I remember tokens being used well was Nicholas the Saint and J Talbain

NJBrock22
12-19-2012, 02:27 AM
well with all due respect, no one is gonna convince me that Tokens = bad for the game, so yeah...

N.J.

HypeMan!
12-19-2012, 03:36 AM
Its not bad for the game its just they're silly and pedantic in most of their implementations. Its kinda "here's a really cumbersome still idea that does the same thing as something a whole hell of a lot simpler." Really its only the ones I mentioned that work well enough. I think the other thing is every character had its own unique token, and their support allowed more to be put on them, so you could conceivably have half a dozen different tokens on 1 character, which is just stupid and confusing. Most games that have a token mechanic, its just that, a token with nothing fancy about it. The other part of it was that since each token type was unique to a character, it created a bit of a convoluted problem in the past about how tokens interact with each other and basically limiting the whole "Universal" aspect of the game, because I think there was a bad interaction between a card that didn't specify the type of token it was talking about.

Its just a can of worms that has been explored before and deemed a bad idea, and a tactic of trying to be too much like Magic.

Rider kick
12-19-2012, 12:03 PM
Tokens are a dealbreaker because Jason hates them too. That's what I meant by fair warning. You will never get a token character printed unless - and only very maybe - there's something really cool and unique going on, ideally combined with a sufficiently limited amount of bookkeeping.

Counting tokens to do speed and damage mods, the most generic effects in this game, will never fly. It has to be an effect type that hasn't been seen before and can't realistically function in any way that does not involve tokens, not something we do all the time or even once in a while that you just want to use tokens to store or count or whatever.

Well then I weep for the game not being able to expand and evolve beyond it's limitations due to thinking such as this.

Cetonis
12-19-2012, 12:11 PM
It's not "expanding and evolving," it's just poor design. There is sooooo much design space in this game that can be explored and utilized without copping out and trying to use tokens to sugarcoat what are ultimately very generic effects. If you want to "expand and evolve," Hawk/Kindle/Defense/etc. style tokens are one of the last places you should be looking.

Rider kick
12-19-2012, 01:13 PM
It's not "expanding and evolving," it's just poor design. There is sooooo much design space in this game that can be explored and utilized without copping out and trying to use tokens to sugarcoat what are ultimately very generic effects. If you want to "expand and evolve," Hawk/Kindle/Defense/etc. style tokens are one of the last places you should be looking.

Well then what mechanic would you implement on a person whose fighting style on gathering various gems to encase her self in for defense then expel them as weapons? As i said, the reason I chose counters is because I felt it was an accurate representation of her powers and abilities. Her attacks are most certainly ranged there is no doubt about that. However that only covers one mere aspect of her powers and only effects her attacks. The character card herself based off the bio tends to lean towards counters to represent the ability.

HypeMan!
12-19-2012, 02:07 PM
After one of your ranged attacks deals damage, turn it face down in the card pool. Cards turned face down this way do not clear from the card pool during the next End Phase.

E Commit, add one card from your hand to your card pool face down: This attack gets -X damage, X equals the number of face down cards in your card pool.

First F Discard X cards from your card pool: Add any number of cards from you discard pile to your hand who's total added control checks are equal too or less than X.


Problem is this doesn't exactly jive with her symbols, but its as far as I've gotten with it. Not even sure if the static is necessary for the current abilities I have.


My thinking is this:
Her symbols are Air, Earth, and Void. [Air] deals with a flurry of attacks, [Earth] largely revolves around damage reduction, and [Void] has become more of a discard symbol rather than lock down/control of the old days.

In tandem, we have current precedents for [Air-Earth] dealing with some recursion and looping attacks (Zoey). For [Earth-Void] its been about blanking foundations more than anything with Rash and Kaden. [Air-Void] is a little more odd, I guess predominantly revolves round Enhance manipulation, locking your opponent out ala Satoshi and Miska.

Thematically, she seems to have this balance between escalating defenses that weigh her down, but then using those as weapons.

Cetonis
12-19-2012, 02:24 PM
Well then what mechanic would you implement on a person whose fighting style on gathering various gems to encase her self in for defense then expel them as weapons? As i said, the reason I chose counters is because I felt it was an accurate representation of her powers and abilities. Her attacks are most certainly ranged there is no doubt about that. However that only covers one mere aspect of her powers and only effects her attacks. The character card herself based off the bio tends to lean towards counters to represent the ability.

Top down design is dangerous for this reason, trying to parse every single line of a bio into a clause of card text will almost never end well. You need to be content with matching the general feel, in this case accumulating tools/options/potency as the game progresses.

Which is not that hard; there are tons of things that naturally accumulate in this game - momentum accumulates, cards in your staging area and discard pile accumulate, stacked characters accumulate, etc. and that's before you even get to forcing the issue like with HypeMan's example, or, say, attaching foundations to your character card. But I'm going to go with:

----------

Midori
7HS, 19VIT
Air/Earth/Void

R Discard 1 card: After you check an action card, add it to your staging area face down. Only playable once per turn.

E Commit: Turn 1 face down card in your staging area face up. If it is an action card, add it to your hand and this attack gets +2 or -2 damage. (your choice) Otherwise, discard it. If you are in desperation, you may discard 1 momentum to ready this character.

----------

This assumes support of course, in which she'd have a couple action cards that do things of interest, and you could fit a ranged subtheme in there on top of just making all her attacks ranged. I'd rather the R just discard any card, but there needs to be something stopping people from running a 40 blue card deck and just never playing foundations at all. But this would be a potential starting point.

Edit: Once per turn should take care of that make-them-run-foundations problem. Pretty clearly a 7HS as-is, one of those tricky types like a Satoshi. Felt like it needed a bit more help so I put a little damage mod on the E.

Rider kick
12-19-2012, 03:51 PM
Well then you would be running a giant blue deck with foundations practically and I remember quitting during the blue and grey walls of the four star era of the game for that reason. The momentum on the other hand sounds much more feasible especially since she has air on her. Face down is kinda niche thing that i don't see taking off though dipping into zoey and taki stuff would be nice, but ultimately with her symbols she would only be dipping into zoey for added support for the face down and then miska for ranged on top of her own. I'd take out the action part and replace with with attack of the R and the E you designed that way it balances out the deck abit more. The current format is seeing more decks run around average 18 attacks anyways.

Cetonis
12-19-2012, 04:38 PM
Well then you would be running a giant blue deck with foundations practically and I remember quitting during the blue and grey walls of the four star era of the game for that reason.

???

Being able to find actions does not make it so that you can kill people without attacks. The deck would still have to run the usual 16-18 attacks, maybe a heavier load of actions (say, 14-18) than usual, and then foundations.

Rider kick
12-20-2012, 08:52 AM
After Talks with Cet i decided to change the design of Midori a little.
7H
19V
R (+4): After a card is played put a card from your hand into your momentum only playable during your turn.
E Commit: Reveal your momentum: This attack gets + x damage or - x damage were x is the amount of attacks in your momentum Minus the control of the attack (minimum 1)
R Commit: After an attack is played remove X Momentum this attack gets plus x speed or minus X speed were x is the control of the attack. (Minimum 1)

Attack:
Emerald Splash
Ranged, Multiple 2, Combo (Low attack, High Attack)
6 Diff
3 check
Block +3 Mid
4 H/ 3 Damage
If this attack blocks a ranged attack it's block modifier is considered +0 Mid

Combo E: Remove Momentum from Midori, this attack gets + x speed or +x damage x equals the amount of Momentum removed.

Other attack names: Diamond Straight, Quartz Eruption, Ruby Blitz
Foundation names: Troubled Past, Diamond is Unbreakable, Ooooooo Shiny!

Cetonis
12-20-2012, 11:17 AM
I promise I'm trying to be constructive - and if you're just being sarcastic to troll me so be it - but this character has huge problems:

1) Momentum this easy should not be printed in standard at all, especially on a 7HS, even if it does come from the hand. If it were a (5+) on a 6HS with only a very minor second ability, it might at least be within range to test it, but we don't want this character to have no other significant ability, right?

2) Speaking of which, the other two abilities are awful and almost might as well just not be there. Every attack in your momentum after the third becomes a K88-01? I'd rather discard them to something potent. You can discard 3 momentum to get an AGLAO or a Looking for a Thrill? I'll just multiple this FotA instead, thanks.

In the end people would just run this as a 7HS that can horribly cheat the momentum mechanic, and ignore the other ten lines of text in favor of playing good momentum cost effects. Not what you're going for here, I'm sure.

The attack, quite simply, should have a 5 diff and some other combo that's more interesting and actually useful. (and if it's a ranged theme, go combo: ranged, ranged or something~) I don't think I need to tell you how rare it is for Powerful: 1 to be activated, and speed-pow: 1 isn't much better.

RockStar
12-20-2012, 11:43 AM
After Talks with Cet i decided to change the design of Midori a little.
7H
19V
R (+4): After a card is played put a card from your hand into your momentum only playable during your turn.
E Commit: Reveal your momentum: This attack gets + x damage or - x damage were x is the amount of attacks in your momentum Minus the control of the attack (minimum 1)
R Commit: After an attack is played remove X Momentum this attack gets plus x speed or minus X speed were x is the control of the attack. (Minimum 1)


I have to agree with Cetonis on this one. You have cited Block 4 as a detriment to the game, yet one of the design flaws about Block 4 wasn't just that it was Grey Wars, but also was how easy it was to generate momentum. The first ability is practically FREE momentum all day, every day.

The second ability is fine, if a bit wordy (read: complex) so long as the first ability is toned down. I would actually change it slightly:

"E Commit, Reveal Your Momentum: This attack gets +x damage or -x damage (your choice). X equals the number of attacks revealed."

The third ability should be an Enhance. Also, I think the text on this is way to complicated. I would change it thusly:

"E Discard X Momentum: This attack gets +x speed or -x speed (your choice). Playable while committed."

Again, all of this is contingent upon the momentum-gen ability being toned down.

Rider kick
12-20-2012, 12:02 PM
No, I'm not trolling anyone or being sarcastic. I just want to help my sister out and make a good character ability for the card she came up with is all. So if I seem harsh on this I apologize, it's just family helping family feelings is all. Changed some stuff again, I think the first ability is fine, but it just needs to be more direct in its cost so changed it from any card to ranged attack.
7H
18V
R (+4): After a card is played put an Ranged Attack from your hand into your momentum only playable during your turn.
E Commit, Reveal Your Momentum: This attack gets +x damage or -x damage (your choice). X equals the number of attacks revealed.(minimum 1)
E Discard X Momentum: This attack gets +x speed or -x speed (your choice). Playable while committed. (Minimum 1)

Attack:
Emerald Splash
Ranged, Multiple 2, Combo (Low attack, High Attack)
6 Diff
3 check
Block +3 Mid
4 H/ 3 Damage
If this attack blocks a ranged attack it's block modifier is considered +0 Mid

Combo E: Remove Momentum from Midori, this attack gets + x speed or +x damage x equals the amount of Momentum removed.

Other attack names: Diamond Straight, Quartz Eruption, Ruby Blitz
Foundation names: Troubled Past, Diamond is Unbreakable, Ooooooo Shiny!

Cetonis
12-20-2012, 01:29 PM
No, I'm not trolling anyone or being sarcastic. I just want to help my sister out and make a good character ability for the card she came up with is all. So if I seem harsh on this I apologize, it's just family helping family feelings is all.

No worries, it's just a this-is-internet thing where you can't tell what someone's intent is when they just copy a previous post and replace tokens with momentum. Could have been either serious or sensationalist :P

Now,

7H
18V
R (+4): After a card is played put an Ranged Attack from your hand into your momentum only playable during your turn.
E Commit, Reveal Your Momentum: This attack gets +x damage or -x damage (your choice). X equals the number of attacks revealed.(minimum 1)
E Discard X Momentum: This attack gets +x speed or -x speed (your choice). Playable while committed. (Minimum 1)

I'm still not fond of the having a near-useless third ability added on to an already wordy card, but setting that aside there's a real comp issue here with Kyo. Kyo is a perfectly solid, competitive character, and here we have someone that (A) Can generate momentum at around the same rate but much more reliably/on-demand; (B) Has a near-equivalent damage boost and a better accompanying effect; (big redux is better than a late game check boost) and then most importantly (C) is a 7HS instead of a 6HS.

That comp is a mark of death, and it would never pass playtest in this form. I'm not saying this to be a jerk or shoot you down, it's just that if we want have some hope of the cards from these threads seeing print, or at least make the card with the notion of making a "real" character in mind, then there's a harsh-reality side of it in which the power level has to fit in with what's established in the format. Envelopes can be pushed, but not this much.

The other issue is that I don't think just-some-other-momentum-build-character is going to be tempting enough to Jason to convince him to include this in a real print run. If you really want we could keep working on this sort of setup, but a more unique design is going to have a greater chance of success. (That said, I make no guarantees that there's necessarily any real hope for printing at all, it's not like I've spoken to Jason about it or anything. It seems like the sort of thing that would be cool for him to do and tell people yeah-we-did-this, but that's merely my own opinion)

Rider kick
12-20-2012, 02:22 PM
Agreed, especially since Kyo(the Coolstuff Inc version) right now is my main deck. So what do you suggest lose the third effect, though personally I would like to keep it and lose the playable while committed that shouldn't be there anyways i forgot to erase that part. Going 6/26 or 6/27 for her seems to be better, its just you know it's UFS, no one takes 6 hand size people seriously. :P

Cetonis
12-20-2012, 03:27 PM
I believe 6HS are taken very seriously. The number of decent players who would still say 6HS are bad in this day and age are few and far between, at most you get some people that say 6HS need a built in way to cheat their handsize but even that is beginning to get debatable.

Anyway, I don't like these abilites on a 6HS simply because the card out of your hand is so much more costly; there's a big difference between 7HS being able to lose a card a turn no problem and having strong odds of finding your Flex Bodies or No Sympathies or whatever you have to make use of that momentum (too strong), versus a 6HS that has to gimp their build or block with their face to do the same thing and can't find their best outlets as easily. (clunky and awkward)

More importantly, the issue of this-is-just-a-dressed-up-Kyo1 remains. We can keep playing power level with this if you want, but to be blunt I think the card needs a more unique and interesting set of mechanics in general if you're going to want to entice Jasco to consider printing it.

Rider kick
12-20-2012, 04:02 PM
Well we have had more OP cards come into the actual game be it on jason's watch or any of the previous owners. But what do you recommend? I went with unique in the form of counters because there are no counter characters to an unintentional copy of Kyo1. We've stated that the power is stupid on 7 hand size person, so we go down to six and now its not good enough because it is six. So what are you thoughts on this? Bare in mind there will be no playable while committed ability on her, I refuse to let that happen as playable while committed anything is dumb and over powered, if your committed you can't do anything period.

Cetonis
12-20-2012, 06:23 PM
Yes, it's possible for an ability, particularly one that pulls cards from the hand, to be too good on a 7HS and unexciting oh a 6HS, depending on what the effect is - since you can have an effect (easy on-demand momentum) that's too good for a 7HS and a cost (-1 attack from hand) that is too rough on 6HS.

(re: Tokens are "unique": tired, dull and obvious mechanics that have clearly just not been utilized because they're a bad idea, are not what I meant when I said "unique and interesting" :P)


What I'm asking for is pretty straightforward, I thought - a new design. Surely you're creative enough to come up with something other than speed mods, damage mods, tokens, ranged and momentum. At the risk of being harsh, that's just going to make people yawn. If you want people to go "hey, cool!" instead, bring something new to the table. I often say there is no shortage of design space in this game, and it's not a lie.

I mean, if you really don't believe me, there's (http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc277/Cetonis/UFS/New%20Fancards/03Utsuho.png) an untouched theme/mechanic, and here's (http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc277/Cetonis/UFS/New%20Fancards/13UnknownEntity.png) another, and another (http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc277/Cetonis/UFS/New%20Fancards/18GuhunYegui.png), and so on (http://i215.photobucket.com/albums/cc277/Cetonis/UFS/New%20Fancards/19HatchingaPlan.png). Not all of those implementations are perfect, but the point is there isn't any shortage of room for creativity at all :)

Rider kick
12-20-2012, 10:18 PM
Well the only thing to do then is to leave this up to Jane. It's her character and ultimately I'm trying to please her and not the masses(No offense). I think I've made it fairly costed the health and hand size is correct at 7/19 and all three abilities are fair costed by looking for specific cards in hand to put in momentum, always have a minimum on the redux side, and not being playable while committed. So, I wash my hands on this until she's had her say.

Cetonis
12-20-2012, 10:57 PM
You don't have to please the masses, but if you want to make any sort of attempt to have it printed, you do have to make something that will be persuasive to Jason, and you will need to get it okay'd by playtest. And of the more active playtesters, I'm pretty sure the vast majority of them will be dead set against this - if not the vast majority, then certainly enough that the card would need to be changed.

It's cool that this is for Jane, I get it, but I'm assuming a printable card is preferable to one that will just sit in the depths of the forum back pages forever. And that a good card is preferable to a bad card, (as it relates to making this 6HS) and that useful abilities are better than awful ones that do nothing but crowd the text box, (see: third ability) and that having a shot to convince Jason is more important than this precise ability set. Why waste of all the work put into the bio and the concept and the art, etc. by getting hung up on card abilities that can't make it to print? I know I'm being something of a jerk, but I promise it's only because I would like this project to have the best odds of success we can manage to attain.

Jane10lo
12-20-2012, 11:15 PM
Hmm, this seems to be a lot more complex than I thought it would be formerly. Sorry for not being able to put much input, but I really have to remain neutral in the aspects of the card abilities since I don't fully understands the various mechanics of UFS. I had considerable help with the proposed 'Mech Girl' card mechanics, and even then that was a simple idea of assembling the robot Armaments and then getting a major damage increase on certain attacks while clinging to life as long as possible.

My only thoughts on this for a new card mechanic (though it may not be, I don't know) is maybe the concentrate on a defense/attack exchange (in relation to the armor). So the proposed idea behind this is you want to build up damage reduction but can't attack for high damage (armor part) and then be able to exchange the defense you build up for a considerable attack pump (but you lose all defense). So you either can have a big damage reduce throughout your turns, or leave yourself open to do more damage ( not neccesarily the + or - X idea, but something layered throughout the play, not just one turn). Also, from her bio, the crystal is detrimental to health, so maybe there could be a health reduction effect for each defense build/attack pump... just something to keep in mind.

Hope this helps with ideas.

Cetonis
12-21-2012, 12:19 AM
I'll be mulling this over to some unhealthy extent. One thing I will say is that damage redux is very dicey, as we really really want to avoid standard getting to a point where decks need to output gigantic sums of raw damage to win certain matchups - it both restricts the field of playable decks, and makes life completely miserable for 7HS. (funny to say, I know) I fear it's something we're already slipping towards so we'll want to be cautious how we approach this.

HypeMan!
12-21-2012, 12:33 AM
UFS has always been a really slippery slope of design.

The defense at the sacrifice of offense and vice-versa was my thinking with the basically self card pool clogging that limits offensiveness and makes playing cards harder for the benefit of defenses.

Jane10lo
12-21-2012, 01:09 AM
I'll be mulling this over to some unhealthy extent. One thing I will say is that damage redux is very dicey, as we really really want to avoid standard getting to a point where decks need to output gigantic sums of raw damage to win certain matchups - it both restricts the field of playable decks, and makes life completely miserable for 7HS. (funny to say, I know) I fear it's something we're already slipping towards so we'll want to be cautious how we approach this.

I understand the worries of damage reduction accumulation in the mechanics, but you simply have to add some safety-nets into the mechanics to make it balanced (Hypeman's example that eventually you clog your card pool). Of course, I have no idea about the whole hand-size debate... all my decks have been relatively low hand-size characters so I have no experience of the mechanics behind the 7HS etc. But if we take certain aspects from each player's card mechanic suggestions, maybe we can accumulate a completely new system of defense/offense that would be exciting.

If we can agree on that, then we could concentrate on support, attacks, etc. that would make Midori's deck balanced, but novel to play.

Flagnine1
12-21-2012, 02:03 AM
I was thinking to use a Tira like mechanic where you can attach other cards to give some diversity in the character. I figured doing this with battle suits one focused on each symbol she has. Amethyst is Void, and focuses on powerful and discard. Emerald for Earth damage pump and reduction. Sky Diamond for Air ranged attack shenanigans. Each suit has an offensive and a defensive ability. Was also thinking of an action card to switch suits and another to destroy it for a big effect. But there should be no way of her having multiple suits attached at once.

Midori
HS 6
Vit 26

After characters are revealed at the beginning of the game search your deck for a card named Amethyst Battle Suit, Emerald Battle Suit, or Sky Diamond Battle Suit and attach it to Midori.

R: If your attack did damage, you may add one card from your hand to your momentum face up.

Amethyst Battle Suit
Action 3/4 +2 mid
Void, Earth, Air
Midori only.
While attached to a character that character gains the following abilities.
E commit: Your attack gains Powerful:2 or gains +2 to its powerful rating.
R commit: After you are dealt damage from an attack, discard a momentum. Look at opponents hand and discard a card. You opponent may discard two cards to cancel this effect.

Emerald Battle Suit
Action 3/4 +2 low
Void,Earth, Air
Midori only.
While attached to a character that character gains the following abilities.
E: Discard a momentum, this attack get +3 damage. If a face up momentum was discarded this attack cannot have it's damage reduced.
E: Discard a momentum, this attack get -3 damage. If a face up momentum was discarded this attack cannot have it's damage increased.

Sky Diamond Battle Suit
Action 3/4 +2 high
Void,Earth, Air
Midori only.
While attached to a character that character gains the following abilities.
R: Before checking for a Ranged attack, discard a momentum. This range attack ignores progressive difficulty. If a face up momentum was discarded, this ranged attack also gains Multiple:1.
R: Before blocking, discard a momentum. You may block this attack as though it had the Ranged keyword. If a face up momentum was discarded, a card in your hand also gains the ranged keyword.


The effects are probably a little on the strong side but I think Earth and Void at least need stuff on this level to stop be bottom of the barrel symbols.

Edit 1:Changed Battle suits to Actions.

Grizzlegrom
12-21-2012, 06:47 AM
I was thinking to use a Tira like mechanic where you can attach other cards to give some diversity in the character. I figured doing this with battle suits one focused on each symbol she has. Amethyst is Void, and focuses on powerful and discard. Emerald for Earth damage pump and reduction. Sky Diamond for Air ranged attack shenanigans. Each suit has an offensive and a defensive ability. Was also thinking of an action card to switch suits and another to destroy it for a big effect. But there should be no way of her having multiple suits attached at once.

Midori
HS 6
Vit 26

After characters are revealed at the beginning of the game search your deck for a card named Amethyst Battle Suit, Emerald Battle Suit, or Sky Diamond Battle Suit and attach it to Midori.

R: If your attack did damage, you may add one card from your hand to your momentum face up.

Amethyst Battle Suit
Asset 3/4 +2 mid
Void, Earth, Air
Midori only.
While attached to a character that character gains the following abilities.
E commit: Your attack gains Powerful:2 or gains +2 to its powerful rating.
R commit: After you are dealt damage from an attack, discard a momentum. Look at opponents hand and discard a card. You opponent may discard two cards to cancel this effect.

Emerald Battle Suit
Asset 3/4 +2 low
Void,Earth, Air
Midori only.
While attached to a character that character gains the following abilities.
E: Discard a momentum, this attack get +3 damage. If a face up momentum was discarded this attack cannot have it's damage reduced.
E: Discard a momentum, this attack get -3 damage. If a face up momentum was discarded this attack cannot have it's damage increased.

Sky Diamond Battle Suit
Asset 3/4 +2 high
Void,Earth, Air
Midori only.
While attached to a character that character gains the following abilities.
R: Before checking for a Ranged attack, discard a momentum. This range attack ignores progressive difficulty. If a face up momentum was discarded, this ranged attack also gains Multiple:1.
R: Before blocking, discard a momentum. You may block this attack as though it had the Ranged keyword. If a face up momentum was discarded, a card in your hand also gains the ranged keyword.


The effects are probably a little on the strong side but I think Earth and Void at least need stuff on this level to stop be bottom of the barrel symbols.

I think these should be action cards because I would think cards like Kazuya and spinning necro driver could destroy these :(

Flagnine1
12-21-2012, 07:19 AM
True. I agree. I will edit when I get home.

Cetonis
12-21-2012, 07:59 AM
Tira might be a mechanic worth revisiting, but agreed on the blue cards. However, it's possible that there's never a full RH set again, or at least not for a fairly long time. So I'd like to try and come up with something that's promo-able with only one or two support cards if needbe:


Midori
6HS/27VIT
Air/Earth/Void
E Destroy 1 foundation: Your Ranged attack gets +X speed and +X damage. X equals the number of foundations in your staging area with the same name as the foundation destroyed to pay the cost of this ability plus 1.
E Commit 1 foundation: Choose X non-character cards in your opponent's staging area. Those cards are considered to have blank text boxes for the rest of this turn. X equals the number of ready foundations in your staging area with the same name as the foundation committed to pay the cost of this ability. Only playable during your opponent's attack.


There we go. You're naturally going to build up your foundation copies over the course of the game, so as the turns go by you will be able to fuss up your opponent's attack turns harder and harder. It's weak early and very potent late, could turn out to be a little too good but should at least be close enough to toss a deck together and test it out. Your offensive ability also gets better late, and immediately nerfs the power level of your defensive E as desired; going all in on offense should kill it off near completely. If she got one support card in this theoretical promo batch, I'd make it a nice Ranged attack, possibly a Ranged Reversal since her symbols have none and the option to blank defensive foundations and hit them with an attack on their turn seems like it'd be cool to have.

Rider kick
12-21-2012, 08:39 AM
I like the Tira idea, but we should add that each time she switches out crystals she loses x vitality were x is the control of the card. Since doing this does hurt her at the same time as help her. Just make her 6/28 or 6/26 and her crystal armors 3/4/5 controls depending on their abilities. Also once you rotate out an armor let them just go to the k.o pile as opposed to stacking.

Cetonis
12-21-2012, 10:24 AM
The effects are probably a little on the strong side but I think Earth and Void at least need stuff on this level to stop be bottom of the barrel symbols.

No. We're not going to try and "fix" format balance by making broken fancards. And moreover these don't give any of their symbols anything, they're character only. (Plus people's rule-of-thumb notion of symbols x y and z being "bad" is not necessarily accurate. Some just require more effort :))

Another issue with the way you have that currently set up is, that in our theoretical RH3 set that may never happen, we are now printing three cards that are not just character only, but can't even be played normally by said character in any way other than blocking. The nice thing about Tira was that her actions did things on their own and could in theory be played by anyone. (and have been, every once in a while)

I am a fan of the conditional "if the momentum discarded was face up" stuff though, that's a new and useful take on the face up momentum business.

Flagnine1
12-21-2012, 03:31 PM
Rider that was the idea, that she can only have one suit at a time. However perhaps having a way to swap the suits bujlt in might lower card count.

Cetonis I feel that 4 promos is no worse than Jin or Mai. I agree with you that air just needs a little more work to make a deck. However I don't agree with either earth or void just needing more work. This may change after kof drops but right now the characters in there two symbols are too mish mosh to help one another. Earth's best characters, King and Kaden, are gimmicky at best. Void has it worse, it's characters all either are terrible or better off there other symbols. A few exceptions mostly in Mei Lien. I also believe that there are good cards, maybe not at the quality or quantity of life cards, in both those symbols that never see play because there is no proper pilot for them. So as I stated a good, even slightly overpowered character on these symbols would be good to shake up the meta.

I am willing to take suggestions on the Battle suits. I didn't add anything but there abilities because it's easier to have the card preform the way you want when only one character can use it. I also didn't want to make it to wordy.

Cetonis
12-21-2012, 04:18 PM
On topic:

By four cards, I didn't mean people had to collect four, I meant you're expending four slots in your set for what amounts to a single character card, and none of the three assets can be used in any other deck and can't even be normally played in the one deck they are run in. That stings.

The current meta is incredibly irrelevant to this pursuit. Even if this stuff got printed, it'd definitely be after the first KoF set, as well as after any bans that might happen pre/post-nats. And with your design, it'd have to be in an actual set as this demands four cards up front and at least a couple cards of support. No way is Jason going to stuff all that into a prize promo run. So we'd be talking 2014 at the earliest for some future RH3, and possibly just never. But since it's fun to talk symbol balance:

Symbol stuff:

Mei Lien's best symbol is easily order last I knew, but that aside void Satoshi is definitely good (but hard to play) and there's nothing wrong with void Cassandra. There are others. Honestly Void has great foundations and strong attacks, it just doesn't have any easy buttons so people just don't bother trying.

Earth does kind of work off the strength of its characters, but Earth Omar is certainly good and King hasn't gotten any worse. I doubt anyone has even bothered to try Bryan Fury lately, and Yi Shan with Reverse Shoulder Launch is surprisingly interesting but in need of a finisher. (You can splash Trib but we'll stick to pure-earth here) Throws are throws, and it does have a nice foundation base, even if it's not overflowing with insanity like some other symbols. It's just again, no easy buttons.

Simply because you can't drop Trib2Win or Kaplow, and can't Templar/BSK block everything, doesn't mean you're non-competitive. It just means that the path to a solid deck and solid play of that deck is foggier and less forgiving.

Grizzlegrom
12-21-2012, 04:29 PM
What I would suggest for battle suits would be one is an asset, an action and a foundation and each have one ability to give Midori and one in play but not be character only one could also be an attack but is only attachable if it hits type of thing kind of like her ultimate power :)

JavelinChimera
12-21-2012, 06:14 PM
E Commit 1 foundation: Choose X non-character cards in your opponent's staging area. Those foundations are considered to have blank text boxes for the rest of this turn. X equals the number of ready foundations in your staging area with the same name as the foundation committed to pay the cost of this ability. Only playable during your opponent's attack.


Eh...?

Cetonis
12-21-2012, 09:15 PM
Stuff happens when you edit and retype and back and forth and such. Non-character is the intent.

JavelinChimera
12-21-2012, 11:37 PM
I like those abilities then. Blanking is a very earthy-voidy component from current standard support.

Jane10lo
12-25-2012, 01:20 AM
I think this is going to be difficult to narrow down the favorites of the card abilities. It's a little easier to pick one character design, but it's completely different to know which mechanic would be best marketable, but favorable with the UFS community.

Rider kick
12-25-2012, 10:48 PM
Honestly, and this is no offense to anyone. But screw what we think and go with what you want Jane.

NJBrock22
12-26-2012, 07:17 AM
Honestly, and this is no offense to anyone. But screw what we think and go with what you want Jane.

this, i mean all we're gonna do is bang our heads against the wall trying to come to a concensus as to what abilities to give her, it is Jane's creation after all, i'd say leave it to her to figure it out.

N.J.

Grizzlegrom
12-26-2012, 05:42 PM
The plan was to do the same with abilities as the characters but I think the best way to do the voting would probably be one ability gets eliminated each week the one with the least votes. Because remember this is community create a card so everyone should get a say in it :)

HypeMan!
12-26-2012, 05:49 PM
Might want to be groups of abilities, you could wind up with a bunch of abilities that don't function together ala Wess Victory, especial since some people suggested statics.

Grizzlegrom
12-26-2012, 06:21 PM
I will try to go through them when I return from holiday and put together the ones that would best suit the character and if Jane has any suggestions to pm me with the ones she likes best and we will go from there :)

Jane10lo
12-27-2012, 05:02 AM
I think a poll for now would be the best approach.

Jane10lo
01-14-2013, 07:29 AM
hey guys, shall I set up a manual poll? I think Grizzlegrom is a little busy, but I would like for this to be resolved.

Grizzlegrom
01-15-2013, 02:21 PM
hey guys, shall I set up a manual poll? I think Grizzlegrom is a little busy, but I would like for this to be resolved.

you can go ahead with it Jane thanks for helping out :) I think the best choice for the poll is choose which ability is eliminated