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Thread: Food for thought Jasco - keywords

  1. #1

    Question Food for thought Jasco - keywords

    Despite the subtitle to this section of the forums, I highly doubt Jasco staff bothers to take the time to read these posts... but on the off chance:

    Before I get into the effect I designed, I feel as though it's important to go over why and how this has came around.

    Something I personally think UFS needs to work on as a game is "Descriptive Keywords" mainly that we need less and less of them pronto.

    I felt like a couple of sets ago, the game already had too many descriptive keywords in it and since then we've received Charge, Fury and Tech

    The game as it stands now has:
    Punch
    Kick
    Ranged 'cause it's effect got stripped (something newer players may not know)
    Weapon
    Slam
    Ally
    Charge
    Tech
    Fury

    This is an issue, not only to myself, but to other players who I know share this same view.

    It feels as though from a players point of view that this new X keyword has been created so that designers can just fill up sets with a bunch of characters and support that work around using cards with the X keyword.

    Blanka, Guile, M. Bison, Baelkor, Lily, Sahsa... and MANY more.

    Nevermind the amount of descriptive keywords that just get slapped on attacks for the sake of it.

    I really don't want to sound like I'm bashing designers, it really does just seems super lazy to me.

    But on the flip side, when you create a new keyword effect not only do the players get super excited because of how this new keyword effect will shake up the format and the game for that matter, it also leads them to believe they'll get characters that work around this new keyword effect.

    Examples of this are:

    Bass, Gabrek, Miska, Quick Man.

    They create a plethora of new deck archetypes in UFS.

    Quick Man was a good example - although he's a character that is generally considered quite a low tier character, it was super interesting to get characters that worked around new inventive keyword abilities.

    Bass would be boring as hell and hardly anyone would play as him if the Safe keyword was a descriptive keyword.

    Think how happy players were to hear about Deadlock. It got the community excited talking about how this new keyword would change UFS forever and how they'd be super enthusiastic towards these strong effects to load into their deck.

    Anyway

    Descriptive keywords 👎
    Keyword abilities 👍

    and with that in mind, here's a new keyword effect I've thought about for a very long time now as a UFS player.

    "Iron" - The damage of this attack may not be reduced.

    Simple, straight to the point and it's an effect that I've seen printed as a static on a handful of cards in the past, just like Safe was before it got made into a keyword effect.

    It's a fair effect because omni-blocks exist, if you found Iron and Throw on the same attack, it wouldn't get out of hand... that and the fact that there are a lot of other ways of dealing with attacks now and ways to strip off keywords that this would be a useful addition to the list of keywords, but not game breaking like some of the others.

    And I know how much Jasco like "people gotta die" effects so I'd be shocked if they turned this down.

    Something that I also kinda wished existed in the game was a somewhat clause on Throw in order to make it fair.

    It's a bit late because now you have Omni-blocks. But I personally feel static effects are really harmful for the game if they're a relevant potent effect like throw is.

    No one would have ever complained about a throw deck or needed any Omni-blocks if throw was simply changed slightly.

    instead of what it is now "If this attack is completely blocked, it still deals half it's damage rounded up"

    Have it as "R [Card Pool]: After your opponent completely blocks this attack, it still deals half it's damage rounded up" it would be fantastic, smiling faces all around the board as you could interact with them and you didn't instantly lose if you were on too little life.

    And that's coming from the perspective of a player who has played Throw decks their entire UFS run.


    I'm sure if you put your mind to it you could make a bunch of awesome keyword abilities which would be super cool, just please make the effort as they will be much appreciated.

    As much as this post was aimed at potentially getting the attention of Jasco staff, what new keywords could you come up with? comment them down below as I assure you I will give them a read 👍

    Thanks for your time, hopefully a Jasco representative could respond to this as that would make it so that this didn't go to waste, here's hoping.

    Blurd Out!
    "I've never been good with words... it's why my metacarpals have been broken on and off most my life"

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  2. #2
    Regular Member Lolollo's Avatar
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    Ive always been of the opinion that Throws should have always been that even if theyre fully blocked, they deal 1, 2, or half printed damage. It gets the benefit of netting you momentum, it persists in the issue where if youre at low enough health, its a futile endeavor, but it eliminates the issue where you can devote entire decks *coubassgh* to playing throws that get insane damage and end up dealing upwards of 150% of their printed damage even when blocked.
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  3. #3
    Regular Member 'Caz Simon's Avatar
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    Been saying this pretty much since Blood Omen. Making new unloaded keywords just to make more cards that interact with them doesn't make the game more interesting or fun. We've had gimmick punch/kick/weapon decks forever. Nothing new or exciting is happening with charge/tech/whatever, especially since none of these gimmicks have any kind of unique identity happening.

    It's just a lazy way to prop up design; Jasco doesn't want to reduce the massive cardpool we have in standard (10 sets is absolutely ludicrous even without KoF acting like a massive pair of concrete shoes holding us underwater), but they also don't seem to want to playtest new characters with such a large cardpool (see: Zoey, Napalm Man). So here we are artificially reducing the card pool with character design rather than actually just rotating more sets. I feel like the current keyword spaghetti is actually a symptom of having too many cards to play with.

    I do think that keywording more common abilities like you've pointed out is a good idea, and I'd be happy to see more of it. Keyword abilities save text, and allow for more interesting attacks. For example, Buster Wolf was kind of an underwhelming card, but imagine all the text that wouldn't have to be on it:



    You could have
    Ranged - Punch - Safe
    R Discard 1 momentum: After you play this attack it gains Flash. If this attack deals damage, your opponent adds 1 card from their discard pile to their card pool.

    You could easily fit a second ability onto this to make it more playable in some way without having to change around any numbers. That's the kind of thing that I'm hype for.
    Last edited by 'Caz Simon; 06-29-2017 at 11:08 PM.
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  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by 'Caz Simon View Post
    Been saying this pretty much since Blood Omen. Making new unloaded keywords just to make more cards that interact with them doesn't make the game more interesting or fun. We've had gimmick punch/kick/weapon decks forever. Nothing new or exciting is happening with charge/tech/whatever, especially since none of these gimmicks have any kind of unique identity happening.

    It's just a lazy way to prop up design; Jasco doesn't want to reduce the massive cardpool we have in standard (10 sets is absolutely ludicrous even without KoF acting like a massive pair of concrete shoes holding us underwater), but they also don't seem to want to playtest new characters with such a large cardpool (see: Zoey, Napalm Man). So here we are artificially reducing the card pool with character design rather than actually just rotating more sets. I feel like the current keyword spaghetti is actually a symptom of having too many cards to play with.

    I do think that keywording more common abilities like you've pointed out is a good idea, and I'd be happy to see more of it. Keyword abilities save text, and allow for more interesting attacks. For example, Buster Wolf was kind of an underwhelming card, but imagine all the text that wouldn't have to be on it:



    You could have
    Ranged - Punch - Safe
    R Discard 1 momentum: After you play this attack it gains Flash. If this attack deals damage, your opponent adds 1 card from their discard pile to their card pool.

    You could easily fit a second ability onto this to make it more playable in some way without having to change around any numbers. That's the kind of thing that I'm hype for.
    To be fair, it could go further than that and trim it to
    Ranged - Punch - Safe

    R Discard 1 Momentum: After you play this attack, it gains Flash. If it deals damage, your opponent adds 1 card from their discard pile to their card pool
    "I've never been good with words... it's why my metacarpals have been broken on and off most my life"

    2015 UK Teams Champ - Earth Goro
    1st - Doncaster PTC - All Megaman
    1st - Sheffield PTC - Fire Goro
    2nd - Colchester PTC - Fire Goro
    2nd - UK Legacy Nats - Earth (Tekken) King
    3rd - Colchester PTC - Earth Andy
    Youngest player to win cardboard - I was 17 at the time.

  5. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Lolollo View Post
    Ive always been of the opinion that Throws should have always been that even if theyre fully blocked, they deal 1, 2, or half printed damage. It gets the benefit of netting you momentum, it persists in the issue where if youre at low enough health, its a futile endeavor, but it eliminates the issue where you can devote entire decks *coubassgh* to playing throws that get insane damage and end up dealing upwards of 150% of their printed damage even when blocked.
    I use to have the idea that if you were to block a Throw with a Throw then it would deal no damage. That would be cool as that's how it works in nearly every fighting game but as much as that's cool and would work in your head, it does create a few problems so I feel that the one I mentioned in this post is far better for the game, it doesn't create any problems... in fact, it actually solves the main issue with the keyword.
    "I've never been good with words... it's why my metacarpals have been broken on and off most my life"

    2015 UK Teams Champ - Earth Goro
    1st - Doncaster PTC - All Megaman
    1st - Sheffield PTC - Fire Goro
    2nd - Colchester PTC - Fire Goro
    2nd - UK Legacy Nats - Earth (Tekken) King
    3rd - Colchester PTC - Earth Andy
    Youngest player to win cardboard - I was 17 at the time.

  6. #6
    Senior Member Shinji Mimura's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 'Caz Simon View Post
    Been saying this pretty much since Blood Omen. Making new unloaded keywords just to make more cards that interact with them doesn't make the game more interesting or fun. We've had gimmick punch/kick/weapon decks forever. Nothing new or exciting is happening with charge/tech/whatever, especially since none of these gimmicks have any kind of unique identity happening.
    Disagreed entirely; limiting a character to what kind of attacks they can play DOES create an identity, albeit, an entirely flavor ability. That said, though, does it really make sense to have Balrog playing Kicks or Chun-Li playing Punches?

    I will agree that they really went hamhocks lately with the flavor, but, still, it mostly makes sense. Charge, I will agree, is entire BS and is as ghetto as it gets. Fury makes sense, and Tech - while still kinda jank - makes sense, but Charge literally just means...well, a move that requires a charge in-game, which, again, doesn't ultimately mean anything since it is flavor, but, still, that then expands a certain type of pool, where, for example, a Charge-based character might have access to a Charge attack that now works better with some sort of Charge fluidity.

    It isn't, indeed, particularly creative; that's where character abilities come into play. For sure. But let's not poop on it entirely. After all, if every character just worked with every attack, then things would REALLY not get interesting, as it'd literally become a top tier fest since certain abilities would categorically be better than others.

    Therefore, keywords have to exist to differentiate. You could play a character that gives all attacks +1 speed, or you could play somebody like Chun-Li who only gives Kicks +1 speed, but can also gain 1 vitality if they deal damage.

    They serve a purpose in carving out niches, that you have to be willing to be restricted to the confines of that character's card pool to access their abilities. That, and it just makes sense for reasons I already listed.

    To just let everybody play every attack is worse than limiting characters to only playing certain types of attacks if you want to access their abilities. Easy.

  7. #7
    Senior Member -OMB-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shinji Mimura View Post
    I will agree that they really went hamhocks lately with the flavor, but, still, it mostly makes sense. Charge, I will agree, is entire BS and is as ghetto as it gets. Fury makes sense, and Tech - while still kinda jank - makes sense...
    Show me a Tech attack that couldn't just be classified as a Weapon attack.

    One of the real issues I have right now with all the keywords is a lot of the design around them doesn't feel very natural. It's not really that the keywords serve to enhance the characters but more to limit them by artificially restricting the cardpool they have access to.

    I don't currently have data to point to to back this up, but I'd wager that if you look back at the results of the last few years the number of characters topping PTC and higher level events that are tied to specific keywords (especially tag keywords) are far, far less than those that are more open ended. Characters that defy this tend to be ones like Felicia and Zoey2. Characters that, while tied to certain tag keywords, have exceptional abilities and also have a wide range of attacks to choose from despite the restrictions.

  8. #8
    Regular Member 'Caz Simon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -OMB- View Post
    I don't currently have data to point to to back this up, but I'd wager that if you look back at the results of the last few years the number of characters topping PTC and higher level events that are tied to specific keywords (especially tag keywords) are far, far less than those that are more open ended.
    Winners in bold.

    Worlds 2017 Finals: Pharaoh Man (no restriction) vs Turbo Man (no restriction)
    Favoured decks: Zoey (has to play ranged attacks, not strictly limited to them), Bomb Man (no restriction), Saiki (no restriction)
    Followup Bans: Characters: Zoey // Deck tech: Bomb Man, Turbo Man

    UK Nats 2016 Finals: Netahli** (not low attacks) vs ???
    Someone would have to go look this one up. No idea what would have been favoured to win this meta-wise post-bans, probably Felicia.
    Followup Bans: None

    US Nats 2016 Finals: Jiffany Jamber (no restriction) vs Felicia (very little restriction)
    Favoured decks: Ryu (no restriction), Napalm Man (no restriction), Kim (specific combination deck)
    Followup Bans: Characters: Jiffany Jamber, Kim, Napalm Man, Ryu // Deck tech: Felicia / anything that played Summer Heat

    Worlds 2016 Finals: Dimitri (technically no restriction, but very easy to build to favour throws) vs Jiffany Jamber (no restriction)
    Favoured decks: Kim (this guy again), Dimitri (see above), Athena (no restriction)
    Followup Bans: Deck tech: Athena (Tama Yose, but much later)

    UK Nats 2015 Finals: Skull Man (no restriction) vs Felicia (weak restriction)
    Favoured decks: Gemini Man (no restriction), Skull Man (no restriction)
    Followup Bans: Characters: Gemini Man, Skull Man

    Worlds 2015 Finals: Garett Brett* (no restriction) vs Snake Man (is lows technically a restriction?)
    Favoured decks: Gemini Man (no restriction), Skull Man (no restriction), Felicia (see above)
    Followup Bans: None, but a ton of champ card rotations

    US Nats 2015 Finals: Huitzul (no restriction) vs Mai3 (no restriction)
    Favoured decks: Huitzul (see above), Phil Birch* (no restriction), Jack Lambourne (best throw character ever printed)
    Followup Bans: Characters: Huitzul

    UK Nats 2014 Finals: Phil Birch* (no restriction) vs Clark* (no restriction)
    Favoured decks: Phil Birch*, not really sure what else, unique meta due to release schedule shenanigans
    Followup Bans: None

    Worlds 2014 Finals: Iori** (no restriction) vs Omniel (no restriction)
    Favoured decks: Iori** (see above), Jack Lambourne (see above), Vespera (technically reversals, but the best ones didn't exclusively play reversals), Phil Birch* (see above), K'* (combo attacks, basically slightly less broken Maxima)
    Followup Bans: Characters: Iori**, K'* // Deck tech: Phil Birch*, Vespera

    US Nats 2014 Finals: Iori** (no restriction) vs Chin (no restriction)
    Favoured decks: Iori** (no restriction), Maxima (no restriction), Chin (no restriction)
    Followup Bans: Characters: Chin, Maxima

    Canadian Nats 2013 Finals: Mei Lien* (no restriction) vs Garett Brett* (no restriction)
    Favoured decks: Phil Birch* (no restriction) and God knows what else cause this was my first event in years, probably Maxima but no one played it
    Followup Bans: None
    Last edited by 'Caz Simon; 07-01-2017 at 06:20 PM.
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  9. #9
    Regular Member 'Caz Simon's Avatar
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    It's pretty easy to conclude that if you were to bet on the finals of an event that matters (no, your PTC results do not matter), a deck with a more versatile, well-rounded character with an unpredictable build is much better than a gimmicky one.

    But that said, gimmicky fun characters tend to be popular amongst certain crowds. Especially with big names like from Street Fighter.

    Do I want a Balrog that doesn't play punches? Hell no. (but lol charge/combo, whatever dude)

    Would it be wrong to make a Mega Man that buffs ranged attacks really well? Of course not.

    Do I want to see a set with over half of this garbage rather than interesting, open-ended build paths? Well, we've got like 4 years worth of results from cardboard events saying this stuff doesn't hold up when it matters. Gimmick characters are great for that casual $$$, but it makes you look like a fool when you're surrounded by the best in the world.

    Making a ton of gimmick characters is only going to make outlier characters more overbearing when there's cardboard on the line. The last 2 majors have basically been defined by this, and they were easily the 2 worst events I've ever played in in terms of the overall quality of the UFS games played therein.

    I keep saying it over and over. Since Megaman Battle for Power the game has never been more fun to play... up until winning actually matters, where it becomes absolutely awful. An influx of gimmick decks every set is only going to make this worse.
    Last edited by 'Caz Simon; 07-01-2017 at 06:36 PM.
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    Self-proclaimed God of the Happy Feet

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  10. #10
    Regular Member 'Caz Simon's Avatar
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    Also, there's been all of 2 throw decks in finals for the last 4 years, not sure where this "nerf throws" thing is coming from. Throws are fine.
    2014 UK Teams Champ
    2016 World Teams Champ
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    Self-proclaimed God of the Happy Feet

    Join us on Discord for live UFS chat:
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