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Thread: Shouoken + Dimensions door ambush

  1. #1

    Shouoken + Dimensions door ambush

    Say I block with shouoken and use the response; After you play this card, cards cannot leave your opponent's card pool or discard for the rest of the combat.

    My opponent then plays another attack and I use Dimension door ambush, would that null their attack without returning it to their hand, or would DDA fizzle, allowing them to play the attack?

  2. #2
    Senior Member -OMB-'s Avatar
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    It does as much as possible. So their attack can't be added but you still attempt to play DDA. Assuming you pass it their attack is still happening but yours gets added to the attack stack and will happen after their attack unless things get added on top of it (like multiple copies or a reversal). If that's the case DDA will occur after those attacks resolve.

  3. #3
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    OMB is correct. Their attack would not be nullified, because the only "nullification" that happens is returning it to hand - which Shouoken prevents.

    So you would still play the Dimension Door after failing to add the attack to your opponent's hand, and your opponent's attack would resolve first before moving on to the DDA.
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    Senior Member wafflecopter's Avatar
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    Wait, attacks resolve in Last In First Out order. We haven't started Shouoken's attack sequence (ie its Enhance Step) during responses "after an attack is played", and once I pass the check for Dimension Door Ambush, DDA is the most recently played attack waiting to start its sequence.

    Why doesn't DDA jump in front of Shouoken?
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  5. #5
    Senior Member dutpotd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by wafflecopter View Post

    Why doesn't DDA jump in front of Shouoken?
    From a read of the LGR I believe it should resolve before the attack it tried to bounce (but couldn't because of Sho's ability).

    F.2.3.3 Whenever a form could otherwise be played, (F.2.1.1 through F.2.1.3 are all true) enter an attack sequence for the pending attack most recently added to the attack stack, and remove it from the stack.

    Attack is played - added to the stack, before it starts resolving Dimension Door's R is played, and in turn it is played. The Dimension Door is added to the stack.

    The game then looks to see if all of these are true, in other words - once all responses are played to 'after an attack is played or the Dimension Door R':

    F.2.1.1 There are no cards or abilities in the process of being played or executing.
    F.2.1.2 There are no response windows open. (see H.2.3.2)
    F.2.1.3 The game is not in an attack sequence. (see G. Attack Sequence)

    If all are true the stack is referenced and the most recently added attack begins to resolve, which is the Dimension Door...
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  6. #6
    Senior Member -OMB-'s Avatar
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    That seems reasonable. I figured if you could play Rs for the attack its sequence had started but I guess based on the stuff dut quoted DDA would happen first.

  7. #7
    Senior Member dutpotd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by -OMB- View Post
    That seems reasonable. I figured if you could play Rs for the attack its sequence had started but I guess based on the stuff dut quoted DDA would happen first.
    This makes sense given the enhance step doesn't start right after an attack is played, there is - instead - a response window to 'after an attack is played' which is where all of this stuff happens.

    Consider other effects that reference the enhance steps and modifications/interactions with attacks that occur upon being played, they are not considered to meet the 'during the enhance step' criteria.

    Example, your next attack gets +2 speed. It would get the speed as soon as it was played, we could not say that attack got a speed bonus during its enhance step which comes after the attack is played (separated by said response window of 'after an attack is played').

    Generally speaking, we look at these windows existing between all steps, the LGR elaborates on this as follows:

    F.4 Additional Rules F.4.1 Phases, steps and turns cannot begin or end while there are effects being executed or a response window is open. F.4.1.1 This includes the steps of an attack sequence. (see G. Attack Sequence) F.4.2 It is possible for abilities to be played or effects or game events to occur in between phases or steps, but not in between turns. EXAMPLE - Effect between phases: Player A has an effect that reads "After the Ready Phase, draw 1 card." This effect executes in neither the Ready Phase nor the Combat Phase, but in between them. If Player B has a card with an ability "R: After your opponent draws 1 or more cards during the Combat Phase, draw 1 card.", it could not be played in response to the execution of Player A's effect. EXAMPLE - Effect before a step: Player B has an effect that reads "After you play an attack, gain 1 vitality." This effect executes before the Enhance Step (See G.1) begins.
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  8. #8
    Senior Member -OMB-'s Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dutpotd View Post
    This makes sense given the enhance step doesn't start right after an attack is played, there is - instead - a response window to 'after an attack is played' which is where all of this stuff happens.

    Honestly all I needed to see was this:
    F.2.1.2 There are no response windows open. (see H.2.3.2)

    Obviously a response window is open because we're playing responses so it would stand to reason that DDA cuts in line in front of the attack it's responeding to as it was added later (last in first out). Definitely an interesting result that I hadn't initially considered.

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