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Thread: Playing Cards as Part of an Ability

  1. #1
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    Playing Cards as Part of an Ability

    When an ability instructs you to play the same card, does this require a control check?

    The reason this seems ambiguous to me is because some cards add the text "(no check necessary)" and some do not. This would be an obvious differentiation in the cards' abilities if many cards didn't also include the text "(your choice)" when the rules already clarify whose choice it is, and many other cards with similar choices to not include the text, especially abilities that can grant a bonus or penalty to speed and damage. this makes it seem like text in parenthesis is just there to act as a reminder and less as the actual text of the ability.

    examples of "(your choice)": Kyokugenryu Grandmaster, Flames Restored

    examples of no "(your choice)": *Spike*, *Jet*, +17 other cards in standard with "+2 or -2"

    Regarding abilities that instruct you to play a card, I am mostly referring to Soul Trap, Big Cyclone, and Jagged Barrage. All three have reaction abilities that allow you to play the card from your hand after your opponent does something. Soul Trap and Big Cyclone both add "(no check necessary)" but Jagged Barrage does not. Does this mean that you do have to make a control check to play Jagged Barrage after using its reaction ability?

    To further complicate the issue, we have the wording of Spreggio's reaction ability. It reads "you may attempt to play it", where the word "attempt" indicates that a control check is necessary.

    This is all a very round about way of asking "Do you need to pass a control check when you use Jagged Barrage's reaction ability?"

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    Prior to Jasco's involvement with UFS, bracketed text was considered functional in many instances.
    Nowadays, however, anything within brackets or italicised is considered to be nothing more than a textual reminder of the actual rules. The cards function the same with or without it.

    In the playing attacks as an ability that you mention, I believe you're actually required to make the check for the ability but, once you've played the card that way, no additional check is necessary to play it as an attack. Do correct me if I'm wrong, though, actual rules people.

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    Here's where I disagree with you. I don't think you need to make a control check to play a response ability printed on a non-action card that reads 'R [Hand]". You're not playing a card, and rule E.4 only says you are playing the card and the ability at the same time when you are playing abilities on action cards. Therefore, when you use the R on Jagged Barrage, Soul Trap, or Big Cyclone, the abilities themselves do not require control checks. My question was weather the parenthetical "no check necessary" was additional ability text on Big Cyclone and Soul Trap, or if it was just reminder text and all 3 cards function in the same way.

    Also, I'd like to point out that all three cards were printed by Jasco Games in the last 2 years.

  4. #4
    Senior Member dutpotd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkhael View Post
    This is all a very round about way of asking "Do you need to pass a control check when you use Jagged Barrage's reaction ability?"
    Yes, the effect lets you 'play the attack'. If the 'playing' of the attack was to be special or involve no check it would have to allude to it in the effect as well, like it does in many other cards.

    The designers probably wanted to say no check necessary but didn't, and no one has functionally errated it because it has yet to cause a stir for a few reasons - a) it seldom sees competitive play, and b) when your opponent plays 4 foundations in a turn your card pool is usually empty and your character is probably ready (going 2ndor you have foundations ready after going first) so making a difficulty check of 4 likely passes with either a single commit or no commit. I.e. practically it is a moot case for needing errata.

    When you say...

    I don't think you need to make a control check to play a response ability printed on a non-action card that reads 'R [Hand]". You're not playing a card, and rule E.4 only says you are playing the card and the ability at the same time when you are playing abilities on action cards. Therefore, when you use the R on Jagged Barrage, Soul Trap, or Big Cyclone, the abilities themselves do not require control checks.

    - you are right and wrong?

    You don't need to make a control check to pay the cost of the response ability.

    BUT when the effect forces you to play a card or make a check you would need to do so (unless specifically told otherwise, such as no check necessary). In the case of Jagged Barrage the effect forces you to play a card, so you go through the steps of playing a card, which involve determining progressive difficulty and making a control check.

    I should note that they've recently shored up the practical implementation of the occurrence you draw attention to here.

    E.4.2 If you are playing a card from a zone other than the card pool, add it to the transit zone. If you are
    playing a card from the card pool, move it to the right of all other cards.

    What does this mean? It means the card doesn't leave the card pool and re-enter it when you play Jagged Barrage. It just moves to the right of all other cards.

    Why is that important? The answer is because there are cards that disallow or punish the removal of cards from card pools - like Shouoken for example, prior to this amendment to the rules Shouoken could stop any reversal, or in this case Jagged Barrage or any 'play a card' if that card had to be played from the card pool, because it would need to leave and then reenter.
    Last edited by dutpotd; 06-13-2018 at 09:51 AM.
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    Ok, that's pretty much the answer I was expecting. I was just making sure I didn't miss some rule hidden somewhere.

    On a slightly related note regarding response windows. If you have multiple copies of the same card with a response ability, you can use the response ability on each of the copies once per window, right? So in the examples above, could you try to play several Jagged Barrages from your hand when your opponent plays 4 foundations, or play all the Soul Traps in your hand for free if your opponents attempts to reversal you?

    Similarly, if you had 4 ready copies of Demanding Submission and your opponent tried to breaker 2 or stun 2, could you destroy all 4 and cancel the ability and make them lose 8 vitality?

  6. #6
    Senior Member dutpotd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by arkhael View Post
    Ok, that's pretty much the answer I was expecting. I was just making sure I didn't miss some rule hidden somewhere.

    On a slightly related note regarding response windows. If you have multiple copies of the same card with a response ability, you can use the response ability on each of the copies once per window, right? So in the examples above, could you try to play several Jagged Barrages from your hand when your opponent plays 4 foundations, or play all the Soul Traps in your hand for free if your opponents attempts to reversal you?

    Similarly, if you had 4 ready copies of Demanding Submission and your opponent tried to breaker 2 or stun 2, could you destroy all 4 and cancel the ability and make them lose 8 vitality?
    Yes, you can play each response copy once. Barring really unusual cases that means you'd be playing up to 4 of the same response from a different copy of a card.

    The practical way the multiple Jagged Barrage play would work would be:

    1. Opponent plays 4th foundation.
    2. Declare response, pay cost adding it from hand to card pool.
    3. Resolve effect and attempt to play the card (pass the control check). If successful the attack is added to the stack and will resolve when back to the form play portion of the combat phase.
    4. Ensure there are no responses to any of what happened from end of 1-now.
    Back to time after '1' declare second response to the 4th foundation being played.
    2-4any number of times. The game would then try to go back to the opponents turn to play a card/form and instead your attacks would resolve first, the stack would resolve last in first out so whatever Barrage you played last would resolve first. They would resolve back to back assuming the opponent doesn't block and reverse, in which case they would resolve the reversal before more Barrage's because of the most recently played attack stack procedure.

    In the case of Demanding it is much more simple because we aren't adding attacks to the stack, playing cards or paying costs from the hand/pool, etc.

    You would respond to the keyword being played with Demanding1, check to ensure the opponent has no response to Demanding's R, then back to the time where the keyword ability was played at which time you would have the opportunity to play Demanding2-4 (assuming opponent passes all opportunities to respond to the same circumstances).
    Last edited by dutpotd; 06-13-2018 at 02:43 PM.
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    Wait a minute, are you saying that Jagged Barrage functions differently to Soul Trap? Why? You're playing the card in both cases.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by dracomageat View Post
    Wait a minute, are you saying that Jagged Barrage functions differently to Soul Trap? Why? You're playing the card in both cases.
    I'm not sure what 'function' you are referring to. Jagged Barrage reads

    R Hand: ... play this attack

    while Soul Trap reads

    R Hand Add this to your card pool : ... play this attack (no check necessary).

    The no check necessary is the only thing that differs in function here (while there is also a difference in that the cost is to add to card pool in Soul Trap's case). In one case you make a check to pass a progressive difficulty, in another you are not required to make a check.

    The answer to your question 'why' is the (no check necessary) that isn't on Jagged Barrage.
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    So what you're saying is that reminder text has gone back to being functional text again? God damn it.

  10. #10
    Senior Member dutpotd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dracomageat View Post
    So what you're saying is that reminder text has gone back to being functional text again? God damn it.
    Um, text is text. Reminder text is only a reminder if, and only if, it is reiterating something - such as explaining what a keyword does...

    What makes you think 'play a card' always means you get to play it without a control check. For example, when an ability lets you play a card as a reversal you are still making a control check to play it, or did you think you didn't have to make a check for something like that too?

    Playing a card, defined in the LGR, involves making a control check against prog difficulty. Reminder text would therefore be in the form of - Play this card (paying all costs and passing all checks)... That would be 'reminding you' what playing a card involves.

    Explicitly tell you about an exception (no check necessary), is not reminder text.
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