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Thread: Playing Cards as Part of an Ability

  1. #11
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    Then why is it formatted as reminder text?

  2. #12
    Senior Member dutpotd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dracomageat View Post
    Then why is it formatted as reminder text?
    I'm not sure I follow at all, are you insinuating because reminders are in brackets that everything in brackets must be reminder text? What's next, why isn't my orange an apple because it is a fruit?

    You can use brackets to elaborate, include additional information to clarify, add to, or otherwise (you see brackets used to add reminder text in very rare cases, usually starter deck cards).

    Not all text in brackets is reminder text, in some cases brackets are used to add on or explain further without using as many words as an additional sentence (for example) would require. In the case of (no control check necessary), an additional sentence would be needed such as 'When you go to play this card, you are not required to pass a progressive difficulty check'.

    Here we go! has - Attach 1 character card from your discard pile (that you could normally attach).

    Are you insinuating that without those words in the brackets you wouldn't be able to attach any character?

    Honky Tonk Woman has - if the top card of your discard pile is a foundation (that you can normally play) add it to your staging area committed.

    Are you insinuating that without those words in brackets you wouldn't be able to take any old foundation?

    Brackets are used heavily to clarify, add additional restrictions, etc. They aren't only used to remind.
    Last edited by dutpotd; 06-19-2018 at 02:10 PM.
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  3. #13
    Senior Member dutpotd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dracomageat View Post
    Nowadays, however, anything within brackets or italicised is considered to be nothing more than a textual reminder of the actual rules. The cards function the same with or without it.
    The real question I have for you is 'where does this thought/feeling come from'?

    There are a large number of bracket usage where the cards don't function the same with or without it. In pretty much all cases they are clarifying text which are required to know what to do. My examples above, and many more uses of brackets to add additional relevant instruction I find by a quick look at Ultra.

    ISSP Grapple - half damage (rounded up).

    That doesn't function the same with or without it.

    (maximum 5), again we see the use of brackets to clarify a limit or exception to the rule.

    In short (no control check necessary) is not a reminder of how to play a card, it is an exceptional case - in this instance your playing the card doesn't require a check.

    When it isn't there you can't assume it was meant to be there.
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  4. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by dutpotd View Post
    Here we go! has - Attach 1 character card from your discard pile (that you could normally attach).
    Are you insinuating that without those words in the brackets you wouldn't be able to attach any character?
    Why would you be able to break the rules just because the card doesn't explicitly tell you that you can't? I can't play the E abilities on attacks in my hand.

    Quote Originally Posted by dutpotd View Post
    Honky Tonk Woman has - if the top card of your discard pile is a foundation (that you can normally play) add it to your staging area committed.
    Are you insinuating that without those words in brackets you wouldn't be able to take any old foundation?
    What I'm suggesting is that the card should read "If the top card of your discard pile is a foundation that you can normally play, add it to your staging area committed." Bracketting those words makes no sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by dutpotd View Post
    I'm not sure I follow at all, are you insinuating because reminders are in brackets that everything in brackets must be reminder text? What's next, why isn't my orange an apple because it is a fruit?

    You can use brackets to elaborate, include additional information to clarify, add to, or otherwise (you see brackets used to add reminder text in very rare cases, usually starter deck cards).

    Not all text in brackets is reminder text, in some cases brackets are used to add on or explain further without using as many words as an additional sentence (for example) would require. In the case of (no control check necessary), an additional sentence would be needed such as 'When you go to play this card, you are not required to pass a progressive difficulty check'.
    Read that back without the brackets. Does it still make sense? Is the meaning the same? All you've actually lost is a small piece of extra and entirely optional information and/or clarification, depending on how you want to define it.
    Now read Soul Trap without the brackets. Oh look, the card plays differently. The brackets aren't optional and they are changing meaning.
    This is the difference between brackets in the real world and brackets in UFS as you have demonstrated them.

    And requiring another sentence? Lol.

    "R [Hand] Add this to your card pool: After you opponent plays an attack during your turn, discard it and play this attack for free."
    "R [Hand] Add this to your card pool: After you opponent plays an attack during your turn, discard it and play this attack without making a control check."
    or
    "R [Hand] Add this to your card pool: After you opponent plays an attack during your turn, discard it and play this attack without checking."
    All work as rough templates.

    Quote Originally Posted by dutpotd View Post
    ISSP Grapple - half damage (rounded up). That doesn't function the same with or without it.
    Halves in UFS are rounded up in nearly every instance. That's a bad example as it could be (and, in my case, was) considered a rule that we are merely being reminded of.

    Quote Originally Posted by dutpotd View Post
    (maximum 5), again we see the use of brackets to clarify a limit or exception to the rule.
    If that were a clarification then it would function as reminder text. It is not and is actually adding a card mechanic. I thought they phased that wording out during the Fantasy Flight era but I guess not.

    Still, I believe you have, in fact, done enough to demonstrate that UFS's brackets are inconsistent with reminder text, other cardgames' use of them and proper english usage.

  5. #15
    Senior Member dutpotd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dracomageat View Post
    1) Why would you be able to break the rules just because the card doesn't explicitly tell you that you can't? I can't play the E abilities on attacks in my hand.

    2) What I'm suggesting is that the card should read "If the top card of your discard pile is a foundation that you can normally play, add it to your staging area committed." Bracketting those words makes no sense.
    1) Because you aren't breaking the rules, the golden rule supersedes things - do what the card says to do. So if you were told on a card you were able to attach something to something, you'd be able to do it unless told otherwise.

    2) I don't agree or disagree with what things should or shouldn't read. It is what they do read that matters. Bracketing things making sense is up to the person writing something, you've demonstrated they can be used to convey meaning or you can not bracket them and write things differently (usually less shorthand) to convey the same.

    Ultimately, we really only see brackets used for reminder text in fairly rare cases when they are in fact reminding us how to play the game on cards expected to be used by new players who can't be bothered to reference keyword definitions when playing for the first few games.

    The more common use for brackets is when brackets are used to add restrictions or, in the case of (no control check necessary), give additional instruction. In both of these cases their presence or lack thereof matter, such is the case of some cards vs. Jagged Barrage.

    When instructed to play a card as part of a cost or effect, it is not a reminder to not need to make a control check. I'd love it if it were, because the next time I go to play a reversal, and the cost now includes 'play this card', I wouldn't need to make a check.
    "No, no, not by the hair on my chinny chin Chin."

  6. #16
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    I don't know why you see reversals and cards that require playing as a cost as equivalent to cards that are played as part of an effect.
    When played as an effect, you're getting the cardplay as a bonus. The effect is essentially playing the card. When the card is played as a cost, the effect is more akin to an on play trigger, requiring you to play the card normally for it to even happen. And, when you play a reversal, you are simply playing a card at a different time. All the ability does is open up a new play window, not trigger when you play the card or make the play happen.
    I guess they're all subtle differences but the three are definitely not equatable.

    Also, regarding your 1), the golden rule is that, in a contradiction between rules and card, the card wins. But there is no contradiction there. It doesn't say to attach ANY character. It doesn't say that you can bypass any restrictions or even imply it in any way.
    The text is clearly serving only as a reminder and/or clarification.

  7. #17
    Senior Member dutpotd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dracomageat View Post
    I don't know why you see reversals and cards that require playing as a cost as equivalent to cards that are played as part of an effect.
    When played as an effect, you're getting the cardplay as a bonus.

    Also, regarding your 1), the golden rule is that, in a contradiction between rules and card, the card wins. But there is no contradiction there. It doesn't say to attach ANY character. It doesn't say that you can bypass any restrictions or even imply it in any way.
    The text is clearly serving only as a reminder and/or clarification.
    The bolded is the main problem, you are biased by the fact that in some cases you get the bonus of not making a control check and from there you assume that it works like that all the time.

    There are plenty of costs that are benefits. E draw a card: on an attack or two, among others examples. For all intents and purposes the played ability as a whole is a set of instructions, do this, ability played, if not cancelled -> do that. The point is when you are told to do something, whether within a cost or effect, and that something is playing a card, the default is you go through all of the playing a card motions 'unless' you are told otherwise.

    The way you understand my example of the golden rule tells me I can't get through to you, you have preconceived notions about the way the game works that conflict with the way it does work.

    To out it simply, 'attach a character' is to say 'attach any character', the only question asked by 'attach a character' is 'is this a character card?' if yes, the effect is clearly saying I can attach it.

    You go on to further muddy the waters and say a reminder is the same as a clarification? The clarification is the point here, it is additional information about what you do that isn't a reminder. A reminder is straight up reiterating what the rules are - such as the case of having the keyword throw and then in brackets (if this attack is completely blocked it still deals half damage).

    I'm not going to respond anymore, but I hope you can see two things 1) why I see the instruction 'play a card' whether it lie in cost or effect to mean just that, play a card - which involves a control check. To mean anything else it needs to say it, whether with additional words in or out of the brackets is not a matter of concern. 2) the use of brackets does not mean it is reminder text. There is no standard for reminder text, and even if there was, it doesn't mean the game still can't use brackets as it obviously does - to restrict, clarify, or modify the instruction - ex. in the case of playing a card, modify its play to involve no control check.
    "No, no, not by the hair on my chinny chin Chin."

  8. #18
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    A clarification clarifies. It does not add. The clue is in the word.
    Brackets give optional extra clarification or extrenuous information. With the way that the english language works, putting something in brackets is basically just a more intrusive way of adding footnotes and is tantamount to saying "hey, this bit's interesting but you can totally ignore it if you want".

    I'm not going to argue the difference between cost and effect any further but I feel oblidged to object to your misusing the language and your defence of this cardgame doing so.

    So, if you'll excuse me, I have to find out which of my friends it was who wanted to play Yugioh. At least then I can get a game that makes sense.

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